Sober Travel: We Didn't Get Sober for a Smaller Life | Teresa Bergen

Hey, one more thing before you go. I have a question for you. Who are you when the thing that once protected you no longer exist? For some people, it's alcohol.For others, it's a career, a relationship, success, or the stories we've spent years telling ourselves.Today we're exploring one woman's journey through the world after discovering what it truly means to be fully present in every moment and how you can, too. So if you've ever wondered what happens when we stop hiding and start living, this is the conversation for you.I'm Michael Hurst and this is one more thing before you go. Travel has a way of revealing who we are, especially when we're navigating the world without the one thing so many cultures revolve around. Alcohol.Today's question, excuse me. Today's guest, Theresa Berzin, is a travel writer who has spent more than 15 years exploring the world through a sober lens.Her work uncovers the emotional, cultural and deeply human challenges of traveling alcohol free. From airports and conferences to weddings, cruises, and countries where drinking is woven into daily life.Her story is one of recovery, resilience, identity, and the courage to live fully without numbing the experience. Teresa, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much, Michael. I'm glad to be here.

You know, I think as I said earlier before we started, you know, a kudos to where you were and where you have become. You've created an environment for those of us individuals that kind of recognize certain aspects of wanting to be present.And thank you for bringing that to the table.

Happy to do it. It's part of my mission right now is to normalize non drinking, not as a requirement for everybody, but as a legitimate option that works.

Choice. We love choice and it gives us the opportunity for choice. I like to begin at the beginning.So before we talk about what you've accomplished, I'd love to understand the person like behind the story. What was life like growing up and from those early years, kind of what sticks with you still today?

Well, I grew up in San Diego quite a while ago. I'm 58 now. So I was born in the six in the late 60s. And I grew up, I had quite a nice family.You wouldn't think it maybe from someone who writes about sober travel, but I had, my immediate family was very moderate. I probably had some alcoholics a generation or two back. But you know, I had nice role models, which was a lucky thing I had. I lived in a nice family.I got to pursue my interests. I was always into artsy stuff. I also really loved bugs and dinosaurs. So one of my first dreams was to be an entomologist. Yeah.So I spent a lot of time collecting. Collecting bugs and saving little critters from our cats when they hunted and, you know, keeping these poor things locked up in terrariums.I had one lizard for five years. So, you know, it was nice. I got a chance to do lots of artsy things and explore the natural world.We'd catch tadpoles, and my mother would let us just keep them on the kitchen counter and open containers as we watched them turn into frogs. So it was a nice childhood.

My brother would have fit right in. He would have fit right in. Yeah. Me on that. I wasn't really a bug guy. I kind of.He was over there exploring grasshoppers and, you know, beetles and spiders. And in fact, my daughter. My oldest daughter, we never in my world thought she had anything to do with any kind of bug.She got stung by a scorpion here in Arizona when we first put. Moved here, and now she has pet scorpions and spiders.

Really? She overcame her fear then.

She did. She overcame her fear. She got scorpions. They have spiders. They've got. And they. She treats them like kids.It's funny little names, and she sends us pictures and it's like, these are nice. These are nice. But I'd rather have a grandkid.

You have a grand scorpion. Not everybody can.

Scorpion. Yeah. I don't want to cuddle with that. I just. I don't want to do that.

That's hilarious.

What did. If I can ask. And we move into. Some people find this a touchy subject. We. I have a. A relationship with this from several different arenas.What did sobriety reveal about you? That drinking had maybe kept hidden?

Oh, well, I'll say just a little bit first about. Because I went from this nice family, I was just kind of an aberration as far as getting really interested in alcohol and stuff.I think I found it just a natural. Natural pull towards it. I don't know what it was like.Even when I was a small child, I drank rubbing alcohol one time because I thought it smelled so good. So it was like. It was just some weird pull I had towards it. It wasn't my family's fault.And I think because they were so supportive when I went off the rails with my drinking. I was really young, and they helped me a lot and was able to quit when I was only 20 years old.So I've had my whole adult life really sober, which has been very helpful. When you say, what does it reveal? We Know, I kind of grew. I got sober so young, so I kind of grew up. Like a lot of my.Growing into an adult, I was already sober. So it's kind of hard to separate, separate things out for me sometimes. But yeah, oh yeah.I just know I have a whole, I have a whole life I wouldn't have been able to do any of if I'd kept because I drank. I drank really hard from a young age. Like I would. I was living in New Orleans when I quit. It was a 24 hour city.I would get up in the morning, start drinking. I would just drink and drink and drink and look for more drinks like all day long. Like it was my full time job.So it was kind of a strange existence for such a young person. I feel like it was some kind of chemical imbalance or something that I just wanted this substance so much.Like I used to say sometimes if I didn't have a drink, I'd say there's too much blood in my alcohol stream. Like it just seemed to me like the alcohol stream was the normal thing. So it was really kind of an aberration.But I mean, I would have been dead so long ago because you can't go on like that for very long. Right? I mean, I would just, I probably would have just been run over because I was always, you know, walking into traffic in a blackout.So it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't like a sustainable existence.

No, I mean, I find that obviously unusual from that perspective growing up in a family that there was alcoholism, growing up in a family that both parents were. My grandfather on my mother's side was my grandfather. Grandfather on my father's side was my, my grandfather prior to him passing.He died at 27 years old. I never actually met him, but there were every picture they had of him. He had a beer in his hand kind of situation.But you, you know, from a generational perspective, you typically see that from my career in law enforcement. I was a D, I ran a DUI task force.And understanding that you could, you could taught a lot about alcohol and how it affects and origins and things like this.You know, I find that, that, that your situation is unique in regard to how you came about with alcoholism because you said it wasn't a familial type of an environment or a negative environment that brought you to where you were when Most people at 21 are starting in their partying years. You stopped at 20, which I found pretty profound. What was the moment you realized that alcohol was no longer part of your story?

Well, there were some pretty clear signs.One time when I was still drinking, when I was about 19 or 20, I made a list of all my problems, and I had maybe 15 problems at the time, and every single one of them was related to alcohol. If I wasn't drinking, I wouldn't have that problem. So that was a good tip off.It wasn't quite enough to make me quit yet, but really I just had some moments where I saw that, where I was in my life, just drinking all day and hanging out with these kind of losers in the scummy apartment.It was so far different from my upbringing, the idea that I could be whatever I wanted because my parents were really supportive and that I would always encourage my sisters and me, saying, like, you know, you can be whatever you want. You can make something of yourself. You can dream, you know. And I was very, very far from realizing any dream at that time when all I did was drink.So that was. It was kind of an existential thing.It wasn't like I got, you know, like I killed someone with my car or like a lot of people go through those really, really awful, traumatic things. Mine was just more existential, I think, at the time.

Well, I mean, courageous too, because somebody at that age or anybody in that situation and understanding it, knowing it firsthand, you know, with my own family, that's a courageous step to take for anybody to take and to recognize that and kind of eliminate it. Because in today's day and age, we know that the society is built around certain factors, and one of them is alcohol.

Yeah, it took a lot of stubbornness and work on my part to choose a different path. But I also was very. I also was very lucky. I had supportive people around me. So I think it's a combination of those things.It's partly my stubbornness and my stick to itiveness, but it also helps a heck of a lot if you have people that are going to help you when you need it. And a lot of people don't have that.And a lot of people, you know, most people, they don't reach that point till they're older, when they even realize there's a problem. And lots of times people have burned so many bridges by then that it's a lot harder for them to get the help they need.

Well, and theoretically, or.And realistically, usually within most groups, even when you get together with friends or family, a lot of times, especially holidays, there's drinking everybody beer. You have hard alcohol, you've got wine. You know, it's all it seems like a societal norm and, you know, almost an expectation to a certain level.You go out to dinner, you go to a nice dinner. I was telling you earlier, my wife and I were planning a trip next year to go to Paris.And, you know, we're watching a lot of videos, we're watching a lot of things to learn and learn what the protocols and what you see is everybody coming into a nice restaurant and the first thing they do is pour a glass of wine. And, you know, from a cultural perspective, it's kind of an accepted thing. How did getting sober so young shape you, you and your identity?

Well, it was hard going to college sober at first because I went to. I went to school at University of Santa Cruz, which is known as kind of a party school.But I found some other kids who had quit drinking young, and it was really great to have them.We met through a support group and we didn't have all that much in common as far as, like our personalities or what we were studying or the music we liked or how we dressed. We were kind of an odd assortment of people. But that was a really strong bonding thing.So it taught me at the early part of my sobriety that it helps you a lot if you have some other people who don't drink.And I'm not saying you can't be friends, you know, or hang out with your family members who are drinkers, but it gives you a more solid core if you have some other people that understand, like you do, why you've made this choice and are always going to back you up in it, and then you can help them out too, and it really bonds you together. So that's a, that's a good first step there.

That's pretty cool. What got you into travel, may I ask? Have you, have you always been a travel writer?

I've been a travel writer for about 15 years, but I've been. I've always been a traveler as much as I could. My parents, again, we used to go on road trips.So we grew up in San Diego and we would always go on family road trips during the summer. We never went on planes together. My parents, you know, it was like they, they put away money. They did fine.But I always thought we were poorer than, than we really were as kids because they were both come from kind of more working class backgrounds and they were more middle class when they raised me, but they just were, they were kind of thrifty. So we'd go on these road trips together in the car. We'd all stay in one room at like a Motel 6, you know, there are five of us.We'd have two people in each bed and then a roll away. We go out to kind of like Denny's, like, places, and we'd go to. We do a lot of natural stuff. Not anything hard.Just like, I remember fishing in streams and, you know, walking along little paths.And because we lived way down on the bottom of California, you know, in San Diego, down there in that southwest corner, we would usually go somewhere in California. Once in a while we get up to Oregon or to Washington, where my dad's people were from.Every once in a while we'd get to Arizona or Nevada, but that was kind of it.So we'd just be driving around all these western states and seeing roadside attractions and doing nature stuff and all staying in these motels together. So that kind of got. That really gave me the taste for travel.

In all that traveling. Had you always had a desire to be a writer?I mean, did you go to university, but, like, to learn to write, or is this something that came naturally to you?

Both. So I started out really young. My mom. My mom was really wonderful. I just lost her last year. I miss her a lot, but she. Thanks. She was.She was a first grade teacher, and then she was able to stay home with us for quite a while when she had kids. So she had. So first grade teachers teach you how to read. So she was very good at that.And so from the time I was tiny, we were making up stories together. First she would tell me stories and we'd make them up together verbally. Then we'd write them down, then I'd illustrate them. Like we were always.It was always stories and books. Trips to the library was a big outing. I'd get like a huge stack of books and, you know, read them all, so.So I'm naturally more verbal and I had a lot of encourage that meant that way. Now, my dad was a mechanical engineer. He worked in. In aerospace.And unfortunately, when I took my one drafting class, I couldn't seem to draw a straight line even with a T square, which was really embarrassing because my dad was very gifted that way. I got some stuff from him, but I got more my mom's verbal faculties and my dad's engineering qualities. And later on, I did go to school.I have a. I have a bachelor's degree in journalism and a master's degree in fiction writing. So I have a lot of writing education all along, from the informal to the formal.

So I'm assuming that when your dad Asked to see your drafting project. You said the dog ate it.

You know what I did in that class? I just acted up a lot. I acted up so I'd get detention and stuff. So I was just.I think I wanted to just be seen as a bad kid rather than a kid who was really sucked at drafting. So I couldn't. I could have just asked him for help.Like, when I look back, I think I could have said, oh my God, Dad, I'm having a lot of trouble drafting everything. But instead I just acted out. I like hit. I hit other people's T squares and got in trouble for it.

That's funny. That's funny. What was it brought you in? Did you start a trial? Let me grab my thoughts here a second.I got like 50 million things started running through my head. So you travel mostly across the United States. Did you travel internationally? When did you start traveling internationally?

My first big international trip other than just going to like Tijuana or Vancouver BC that. Yeah, my, my bigger. My first big international trip was right after I finished college.My boyfriend at the time and I, we were able to save up some money and go backpacking around Asia for six months. And then we went. Yeah, like staying in hostels, you know, carrying all our stuff everywhere in a duffel bag or a backpack.And then we went to, to the UK for a couple months and found some jobs there, kind of under the table.And then we took a Greyhound, we flew back to New York and then took a Greyhound all the way back across the US for like a month, stopping off to see everybody. So that was my first big international trip and it was quite eye opening seeing some of the countries in Asia.And I never really, I hadn't really appreciated as much about being American until I saw some of the things in other countries.

That's what's going on.

Not to say I didn't appreciate things about other countries, but I appreciated like things like public safety.Like when I first saw somebody in Indonesia who was out there in this really hot weather wearing flip flops, shorts and no eye protection, chopping up rocks with a pickaxe and, you know, no eye protection, I was like, oh, God, you wouldn't see that at home.

No. You wouldn't see that here at all. No.You know that from a, from a society and culture perspective in that travel, what did you see the differences in, let's say, the drinking customs? I have a. My sister was married to an Italian from Rome and he spoke very little English when he first moved here.So he brought all his friends out, and we have family that's Italian at the same time that my sister didn't talk to until probably about four years ago, because we never went.But she went back to Italy and then she had gone there and, you know, Roberto and all of his friends that he brought over, you know, there was wine at every meal. You had wine at every meal.And even if it was cheap wine, you know, counties, the lower end of wine, theoretically, you get good Chianate or you get really bad Chianti, but you had wine at every meal. I have French friends, same thing. They have wine at every meal. I have Spanish friends. They do wine at every meal.Did you see that across the board, internationally, when you were traveling overseas in Asia or any of the other countries?

I think that's a bigger deal in Europe in general and some other countries. Asia, most of the. I mean, you know, the Asian countries. There are a lot of different countries in Asia, so they differ, obviously.But I was in Southeast Asia a lot, and it was not. It did not seem to be that big amongst locals, however, it was amongst travelers.So we'd run into a lot of the other young people backpacking, like we were, you know, and they'd be drinking a lot and we wouldn't be. So it wasn't as much of a factor like, as it would be in Italy. But at the time, I was. I was doing my first sober writing then.I was writing for this long defunct newspaper out of LA called the Sober Times. And they had me writing them stories about addiction treatment in other countries.So that was super interesting because I got to go try to hunt down recovery groups and places where they were treating alcoholism in these different countries. And this was like 1992, so it was quite a while ago. And that was.I got myself in some strange situations, especially in Indonesia, because it was still. Drugs were really frowned upon, like you could be executed if you were transporting them. So people didn't really want to admit they were addicts.So I managed to go to the one hospital they had at the time in Jakarta that was treating addiction. And it was very strange going in there. They were very confused about what I was there for and about this newspaper I was writing for.And what was a, you know, what was a newspaper that talked about addiction recovery? So that was hard to explain, but it was very interesting to get the.Go to the chance to try to get into stuff like that and to go to this hospital and finally get this doctor there to let me interview him about the state of addiction treatment in Indonesia in 1992.

Wow. And was there a difference, a huge difference between how they treat that kind of addiction in that country for example, than here in America.

I'm not sure exactly what they were doing medically or I can't remember, but there was a lot of shit shame around it. So like in the U.S. especially back then, everything was pretty. A lot of the recovery centers were very 12 step based.So you had these kind of group meetings where you would talk about, you know, talk about your problems and a spiritual solution to this and following these steps. But a lot of it was very much self revealing and kind of individual centered where you told your own story.But in Asia that was a lot harder sell because a lot of the cultures were more we centered.Like they didn't put the same emphasis on the individual that we do as we do in the US and so it was much more uncomfortable for people to get up there and talk about their own story. And also there was more of a feeling of bringing shame onto their family.I mean, even though there's stigma in the US still, and there certainly was in the 90s about saying you were, you know, you're an alcoholic and your family might not like that, it didn't seem like it was near the kind of stigma and shame that there was say in Indonesia at that time. And I don't know how hopefully that's changed somewhat so that it's easier for people to access treatment.But then it seemed, it seemed a pretty profound difference.

Yeah, you know, I interviewed a guy probably two years ago now, maybe a little bit longer, but he had a job here from the United Kingdom and he, his home place was United Kingdom and he had a job down in Houston, Texas.And he said that he found it very unusual that he watched colleagues of his because it was very high stress financial based company down there where he said he watched people that colleagues of his that would go in and out of rehab facilities here and like it really wasn't that big of a deal, but it also really wasn't talked about. Do you see it? I think I see an overlay there. Let me come up the right question with what you just told me.For example, in the Asian countries, did you see a significant difference in like say the United Kingdom or maybe Italy or France or wherever else you may have traveled in Europe in general, do you see a huge disparance between how alcohol addiction or drug addiction is handled there in here?

Well, my husband is also a non drinker and he lived for a little bit in the UK so I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you what he tells me about there, because he spent more time than I did. He said that he felt like it was.It was more normalized still to drink a whole lot in the UK than in the US and that what someone might question about somebody having a problem here would seem more normal there. At least that was a few years back when he was, when he was spending there.So, yeah, it does, it does depend on the country, I think, what people see as a normal amount and even regionally and then also within, like your social group within. Or your friend group, you know, because your friends sort of normalize what you do.So some groups within our country and other places are going to feel like it's more normal to be drinking heavily than others.

Right. And I, I can see that. I can see that. What, what got you interested in, in like writing about sober travel?I mean, was it just a passion from understanding your own journey and kind of educating? Because I think there is a necessity for it. We have individuals. As I said earlier, my wife and I are going to travel hopefully internationally.And that's the one thing that we question as well, is what are the expectations kind of a thing and how can we accommodate that? For my wife, for example.

Well, I'm so glad you see the need for that, really.When I started writing about sober travel, at first it was partly a joke and it was partly a bratty reaction because I'd get in these groups, I'd be on press trips with these other writers, and they'd all be like wine writers and craft beer writers, and they write about spirits. And I would start to get. I would get really snotty after a while because I'd have to go.I'd have to, you know, as part of these, these press trips where someone's showing you around a place and you're with other writers. That sounds really fun. And it can be. But also, you have to spend hours and hours sometimes doing stuff you don't want.And for me, one of the things I hated was these endless dinners with people going on and on about their wines and their spirits. Right? Because they're all drinking and they're talking about. In the sommelier, or however you pronounce it, will come over and.And talk, you know, to the group about these wines. And I would get so. I would get so annoyed because partly I was bored, partly I felt left out and other than. And like I didn't belong.And then as kind of a snotty reaction sometimes when people said they were a wine writer. I started to say, oh, I write about sober travel. And they'd say, oh, what's that? And I was like, I don't know.So I had to kind of make it up as I went along. So obviously a lot of it is just not drinking.But then I feel like there's more to it than the not drinking part because, like you mentioned before, I think before we started recording, that kind of feeling of presence, like, there's a lot, a big difference between being out with your friends and drinking a whole lot and forgetting half the night and being present.So I feel like once someone decides to travel and not drink or not drink at home, you start to develop other parts of your life that you might otherwise kind of hide under that layer of alcohol and you start thinking a little bit more.So I feel like a lot of the people I know who don't drink are maybe more interested in, say, spirituality or connection with nature or health and wellness. So I feel like all these can also be aspects of the sober travel.

So why do you think sober travel gets kind of misunderstood? My wife has actually been apprehensive, believe it or not. She's got a little bit of apprehension, so.

Oh, people do, for sure.

Yeah. I'm happy to have it.

She's normal.

She's normal. Yeah, I think so, too. I think that, you know, you people, even when you go into.Even here, you go into a restaurant here, and the first thing you ask, would you like, here's the wine life story, here's the drink menu and things like that. And she always feel a little uncomfortable. She's getting really good about not now, but she's more comfortable now.But in the beginning, it was very uncomfortable for her. How does somebody kind of come to grips with that if they're having, but not say having if they're on the sober journey?

Yeah. So some of them, I think first you look at the reasons why it's uncomfortable. Right. Because sometimes you feel.I think one of the biggest things is just feeling like you don't belong. Like, oh, everyone else is drinking and I don't. So that's part of the discomfort.And then with the restaurant, there's a sort of having to speak up and say no. Like, sometimes it's just hard to say no. You're like, why did you hand me the stupid thing in the first place? Why didn't you just.Just wait till I said what I wanted? But no, here's that wine menu again. So there's that having to speak up and Say no.And then I've even heard people say that they worry that the, their service isn't going to be as good because the server will think you're a cheapskate who's not going to tip very well. So those, all, those all come up. But I think belonging is really the important thing.So like I said, it helps if you have some other people who don't drink that are traveling with you or some support at home that you can, can call on. Also, I would say I would encourage people to research a little bit where they're going first.And if the restaurant has a good section of non alcoholic drinks, if it's like they might have like three or four mocktails or a tea menu or something different, then that's also probably going to be a place that you're going to feel more comfortable and included.

You know, and travel is, is with, I can say this out loud, travel is kind of soaked in alcohol. I mean, it's everywhere. It's at the airports, it's at hotels, weddings, cruises, you name it.Where is it hardest to say sober, to stay sober, and why?

Somewhere where you're feeling especially emotional, I think is the hardest. So I was talking to this to George Kub, who's a big doctor who worked on some of the big agencies against alcohol abuse.And he was saying that there's usually two kinds of relapse triggers.And one is the one where you want to really party and join in and the other one is where you're feeling really uncomfortable and you want to hide and you know, they're kind of the opposite things. And he was saying that especially young people, you know, younger people are more likely to relapse on the party trigger.And older people, like people my age are going to be more, you know, they're going to, more likely to relapse from the discomfort trigger.So it could be somewhere lots of times a family, things like if you have a family where everyone else drinks and you go to a wedding, that's, that could be really hard. Sometimes it's a business thing. Like you feel as a writer.I've been to a lot of business conferences, you know, writing conferences where I feel like, you know, all the deals are being made at the bar.And so then that's kind of hard to feel like, oh, I can't just sit there and have a drink with this editor and you know, get drunk and be buddies and then get a bunch of writing assignments. Because that seems to happen sometimes.So, yeah, some of those places where you're Feeling like your emotions are heightened or maybe like your business prospects are at stake, where you feel like you're going to lose something.

Yeah. And that's one thing I said, my wife resonates with that amazingly well, actually resonates with what you just spoke about.Sometimes it does make her uncomfortable.Part of her job is they travel to different cities within Arizona and the whole crew, her whole team and the teams that she works with, what do they do after the class ends for the day because they have to serve the classes. They all go out drinking, they all giving away their secrets. So hopefully if they're listening, they won't be mad.But I didn't mention any names though. Right? So it's good. The, the, that's what they do though. They, they all, they all, they go, what are we doing? We're going to go out and get a drink.And they, you know, for the first couple years of Diane's sobriety, they kind of always went, why, why aren't you coming? Why aren't you coming now? They kind of expect it.They kind of say, well, you know, if you want to come in and have a nice tea or something, come in with a, join us with an iced tea. You know, we don't mind. So it took a couple years for them to kind of get, embrace it, her colleagues to embrace it and get more comfortable with it.But like you said, you know, you don't always have that opportunity if you're going in with new people and meeting new people and new business associates and things like that.In some of my research, I've seen that you've written about the drink within arm's reach problem, the glass inches away, the mini bottom bottle cocktails. What does that feel like in the moment? I mean, do you have any thoughts on that and kind of some enlightenment?

Well, if you don't want to sit on your hands, then probably the best thing is to get a non alcoholic drink and just keep it in your hand. And I've interviewed a lot of people about this because I've talked to a lot of people about their tricks for staying so sober while traveling.And almost everybody says have a drink in your hand because if you have a drink in your hand, people aren't going to offer you as much. And sometimes it's just their feelings of hospitality. Right. They're not really trying to sabotage your life.Which sometimes I defensively feel like, you know, I feel like a cornered raccoon. Lots of times I'm like, really? They just want to include you. They want you to have a drink.So if you're just having sparkling water or your coke or your iced tea, they're probably, I mean, they, they're probably not even going to ask you what you're drinking. They're just going to feel like, oh, they have a drink they're taking care of and they'll relax. So have some kind of drink is helpful.That would be the biggest thing.And also one of the things I do when I go out to business things especially is, and like I said, I've been sober for ages, so you might think it's not a problem at all. But I still sometimes feel like I don't belong or uncomfortable.So I will try to go with the approach that, okay, I'm going to go check this out for 10 or 15 minutes and if I don't like it, I can leave. And so sometimes I do go out for like 10 or 15 minutes and I feel really uncomfortable and weird and I leave.But then there's other times I feel perfectly fine, I have a good time and I end up closing down the party, but giving myself that grace to be like, it's okay, try it. If you don't like it, leave and have an exit strategy. Because that's one thing you want to make sure you're not like stranded.Because sometimes when I go on travel things, you end up stranded somewhere far away from where you're to supposed staying. And maybe there's not an Uber or anything and you're like, oh, I'm really stuck here.So if it is somewhere that's far away, I really think about it first and I try to figure out if I can leave if I want to. I hate that feeling of being, of just being trapped somewhere.I mean, a lot of people do, whether or not they have a drinking problem, you know, So I like to think about that. So, yeah, drive your own car, have your Uber app, have a bus schedule, you know, have a plan to leave if you don't like the place.

Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, we all don't want to be left in the dark and nowhere where we can get home or not. Cool. Not just not cool.You travel, you write in your travel writing. You have, you don't just talk about sober travel, you talk about all kinds of different travel, don't you?

Well, I write about the stuff I'm interested in, so being giving up the alcohol early like I did, but at any age you give it up, you're going to have this gap at first. If you were someone who drank all the time, where you're like, well, what do I do with myself all day?Because I used to drink and now I have all these hours on my hand when I'm not drinking. So you get to try new things and develop new interests, which is really, really fun.So the things I'm especially interested in right now and it changes. But I like like wildlife and conservation kind of stuff. I like nature, especially water things.So my favorite things now are like swimming, kayaking, scuba diving. I just took up scuba diving two years ago and I'm really into that now. And snorkeling. I like the water stuff.A little bit of hiking too and sometimes some yoga stuff. And what else do I like? I also really love cemeteries. It's a whole different kind of interest, but sort of a.The history and art and architecture together. So I'll visit. Yeah, I do have kind of odd interests, I guess. I like to kayak, visit cemeteries. I also love animals, especially cats.So if there's a cat cafe in your city and I'm there, I'm gonna find that cat cafe and I'm gonna go get some cuddles in.

This works. You'll have to, you'll have to give me a list of where they're at. We had three cats.Unfortunately they've passed by, but we had three cats that were between 18 and 19 years old. Had them for a long time and we haven't got replacements yet. But I missed my cats. I missed my cats.

Yeah, you can go to a cat cafe and spend some time with some. Well, I call them prosty cats because they're kind of like a prostitute cat for when I can't be with my own cat.

Oh, that's funny.

I'm sorry about you're losing your cats. My cat is my, is my soulmate.

My wife could ask me, where are we at? I was at a cat house.

Yeah, totally.

We'll just leave it at that. Leave it at that. Don't ask any questions. How do you think different cultures treat alcohol and non drinkers overall?I think, I mean we touched on a little bit ago. Do you think that there's a kind of a stigma when they realize that, that you, when you come there and you don't drink?

Yeah, it depends on the culture and I think it also depends on your gender. I think in general women are going to have an easier time getting out of some of the cultures drinking than men. I think it's.Sometimes it's going to hit men a little bit harder because it'll be seen more as unmanly right? Like, it could be a little ladylike not to drink, but if you don't, if you're a guy, then you're probably unmanly.You're gonna have to stick up your butt or something. So. But it depends on where you go. Like, I have not been to Russia, but I hear that that's. That's a hard place to turn down the vodka.You know, like, that might be a place where people really don't like it when you say no. But in most of my experience, it's been. It's usually probably been a bigger deal in my head than with the hosts.And if they are insulted, you know, you can say no, thank you as charmingly as you can. And if they are still insulted, you know, that's really their problem. You can always make some excuse too.If you feel really uncomfortable, you can say, or it doesn't even have to be a lot. You can be like, oh, I can't drink because of a health reason. Reason. Well, it is. I have an alcohol problem. I don't want to reactivate that. Right.So you can say it was a health. Health problem or have a medication interaction or. It makes me feel really terrible. It doesn't agree with me.You know, you can tell them something like that. And if they keep pushing it even after that. Well, that's not really, you know, that's not really your problem of being polite.I mean, that's just if someone tells you that alcohol makes them feel like crap and you keep telling them to drink, then you're not being a good host.

Right. I agree with that. That's. I mean, it's interesting when you. In society and culture today, I know they've changed some things.You know, even commercials now, you know, whether you do a commercially, you. You'll see beer, for example, or you'll see wine, but you never see someone in the commercial drinking the beer or drinking the wine, which is.Yeah, it's really. I've had an individual that.I have several individuals, they work in the industry and they said that there's some kind of a regulation now that it's just like smoking. You don't see people smoking, see them in the movie smoking. You see them on TV smoking, but you don't see them smoking on TV typically because they.Something. They don't want to promote it or encourage it or whatever the case may be.But I find it interesting from that perspective how we as society are now treating some of that. But as a cop, and when I say this, I'm going To ask this question.I don't know if it resonates or not or if you've researched it yourself, but I used to go on calls all the time for individuals that were passed out or overly intoxicated or by themselves. And, and I ran into a lot of individuals that drank because they were lonely. As a cop, they drank because they were lonely.They didn't have any friends, they didn't have any family, they felt outcast, they felt that kind of a thing. Do you have any tips on how to navigate that kind of loneliness so that you maybe don't understanding that you're not a doctor? I'm not a doctor.This isn't a medical show. This is just from an experience show.Do you have anything that we as individuals can navigate that from a lonely perspective, how to recognize that and maybe take steps to kind of step out of that arena?

Yeah, if you catch it before it's too late. I mean, because it's a real spiral, right?Because if you're drinking because you learn lonely and you don't have friends who stay home and drink well, you're not going to make friends, right? Because you're home drinking. So after, you know, that goes on a certain amount of time, that's going to be really hard to get out of.But if you feel yourself going that direction, just try out some different interests because I think that's where you're going to find like minded people that you have something to connect over, some kind of interest. Not drinking, drinking is not a really good interest to connect over. Although it happens a lot, but it's not that good an interest.So one of the things I started during COVID was I joined an open water swimming group and I, I've always known how to swim. I've never been like a huge swimmer, but I always like swimming.And I found out that people were swimming in our river here in Portland and now I'm really into it. I know like 100 swimmers in town.We all swim open water and we're, you know, we get together for coffee afterwards and we swim in different parts of, of the rivers and it's really fun. So you know, a lot of people, they join like a book group if they like to read, maybe join a hiking group.But I think, I think a group activity where there's something you're doing together that you can bond over and that's a little easier to make conversation. Like you're, I don't know, you're looking for birds or something. You're like, oh look There's a bird, right?You're not just going to, I don't know, speed dating or a coffee shop where you have to sort of strike up a conversation over nothing. And there's online groups, too. Right. But I think in person is even better if you can do it.

Well, I agree with that. And I think that individuals. There are options for individuals to kind of look for and seek out.Sometimes people just don't think about what's available to me. And, you know, there are a lot of community centers and other facilities, the deeds that can help, I think, from that perspective, in your travel.You've been a travel rider for about 15 years now, correct?

Yes.

And all of that, this comes from the show itself. This is something that I try to kind of really touch upon.What does it travel that you have done, teach us about presence, connection, and being fully awake to the, to our life.

I think that travel can be a great tool for political good, among other things. And Rick Steves wrote a good book about this. I forget what it's called, but maybe it was called Travel for Political Good. I don't know.Okay, so we read, we read all this stuff in this news or we have like our Facebook people that all think the same way we do, right?Because we choose our own news source and we choose these friends and everybody reinforces each other and validates, like, oh, yeah, I'm on the right side of things. I know what's, what's, you know, I know what what is. And I believe this news source. So you go some other.To some other country and you talk to people and it can just blow your mind because you find out that, you know, these are the real people in this country. It's not like you read about something might be the same, something's going to be totally different.They're going to be real people telling you their real stories. They're not just like these, you know, these stereotypes we see in whatever news source we're looking at.And then it makes you think about yourself, too, and why you believed whatever you believed about this country before you went there. So it widens, it expands your horizons.And it also makes you kind of look at yourself as a citizen of the world, whatever, and also where you're coming from, whatever ethnicity or nationality or socioeconomic sphere you're from. So I think, I think travel is really important for that.And I think if we, I think lots of times it's not until we meet somebody who's one of, from one of these different groups that we start to really see them as true humans. And then when we look at about them in the news later, we're like, wait a minute, I met that guy from such and such a place. And he was okay.You know what I mean?

Yep, absolutely.And I think, I think being present, it helps being present and I think being sober while you're traveling, being sober in those situations, it allows us a clearer picture of what we're seeing, what we're experiencing, what we're listening to and what we're embracing and what we're taking in.And I think that that gives us the presence that we need to understand that we're all human beings and not just from a human been being perspective, but you know, it. I think that we take something away from that. We mentioned it earlier.If we experience something in another country or another state or another city and we do it getting blind drunk, we walk away. And somebody said, would you like best about that? And you go, I don't remember.You know, when you go to it with a sober approach, you can walk out of that going, man, I really like this. I like the architecture and I like the people, the cobblestone streets or the rivers or whatever, the kayaking or the scuba diving.

I agree. And I spend a lot of my time when I travel doing nature things.So I'm often in some position where I'm in some unknown landscape and I'm sort of mediocre at the skills. And I'm in my 50s and I usually have some guide who's.They're often in their 20s or 30s or real outdoorsy, often male, sometimes female, but they're from some other country and culture. They're taking care of me.I'm having to take direction from them even though I'm older than they are, because they know what they're doing and I don't know what I'm doing. And it's very. It's can be a little humbling, but it's also very interesting because I get to know these people, but they tell me about their lives.I get to hear about their struggles and their situations, their hopes, you know, because they're often young and they have like a lot of hopes ahead of them that they're hoping they're going to attain. And it feels like a real connection now. They have lots of people coming and going, so they pro.I probably remember them better than they remember me, but that's also very precious to me, those memories. And I think about some of these young people and you know, I just wish them well.It's a lot different than if you just meet some other tourists at the bar and you're getting drunk with them. It feels. I feel like these people, to me, they. They live in my memory as this representative, this country I visited.And usually they're very good representative of the country. Right. Because they're like a young, enterprising person who knows what they're doing and is trying to take care of me.

Yeah, that's pretty cool, actually. I think that that in itself is an experience that can be embraced with all of that 15 years of sober traveling, travel writing.What'd you learn from that? I mean, you may have kind of just touched on it, but. But overall, what did you learn about.

What did I learn about.

About. Over that 15 years of traveling, what sticks out in your mind the most about writing for sober traveling?Is there anything that sticks out, like, the most out of all that 15 years of writing that really resonates with you, that kind of becomes your foundation each time you travel?

I am one lucky devil to be sober, to have all these chances to travel all the places I have as an American who's, you know, relatively free, relatively good passport and stuff. And I feel.And also at my age, you know, being in my 50s, I feel like I've been given a lot of opportunities, and, like, in my writing, I need to remember that. And so I need to kind of boost up the other people. I need to mention the guides by name. I need to.To promote the local businesses, try to figure out how some of the money is going to go back into these countries and cities I'm visiting. Yeah, I have to use my voice to lift up others and to promote stuff. To promote things I think are good.They're doing good things for the world, they're doing good things for their community. They're doing good things environmentally.So I feel like kind of a lot of luck and gratitude and responsibility to appreciate that and not just be like, you know, oh, that hotel didn't live up to my standards, or, you know, some stupid crap like that.

Yeah, you always see the bad stuff. Everybody brings out the bad stuff first, but it's like, well, what did you like about it? You know, you got to tell me what you liked about it.What made you feel. How'd you enjoy this? That's interesting. What does belonging look like for you now?

I guess first I just have to know who I am. So I'm someone who drinking does not agree with me, and it's probably never going to agree with me. So first, I just had to accept that.And then I just had to tell people I'm someone who drinking doesn't agree with me. And if they. Most people, they'll be like, cool, that's fine, really. You know, I might think differently. Most people are going to be like that.If people aren't, they're going to be like, oh, I don't want to hang out with you, then that's fine. So first I just feel that belonging in myself, and then I can feel all the other people who are going to let me belong with them.And if it's someone I don't belong with, that's fine. They can go do their thing.

And I mean, that's got to be satisfying to have that understanding within yourself and be comfortable with that. And I'm sure it took a little bit to get to it, but, you know, it's a benefit to you and your soul.

Yeah. And it helps too, if you go to. If you go to any kind of groups of support.I mean, there's all sorts of, you know, like the 12 step ones are really big groups, and there's other groups that are secular and other groups that are more religious. There's. And there's other groups you can go to, probably from, you know, some community center.There's like a lot of groups that revolve around sobriety now. But having gone to some groups like this, one of the things I really learned by listening to other people is like, oh, I'm not so special.I'm not unique. Other people have these same sort of feelings. Other people have been in these same situations.It's not like, oh my God, I'm the worst person in the world, or I'm the special person who's going to go on this. It's pretty common. You're going to find, you know, you. You let it be known who you are. You're going to find other people who are.Who share some similarities with you. Yeah. So it's not the end of the world if you're someone who feels like you have a drinking problem.You don't to be like, oh my God, how could this happen to me? You know, everybody has problems in the world, right? It's not, it's not the worst thing in the world.You know, you have a chance to do something about it, so just do something about it. Get on with your life and things can be better. You know, you don't have to think that's like the, the drama, the drama, you know what I mean?

In the back with the hood over and kind of ambling along, like the outcast type thing. Yes. What do you hope. What do you hope drinkers understand about, like, sober travelers, do you think?Because again, we've talked about it, we touched upon it throughout the whole conversation about it, what our perceptions are or the expectations from outside individuals from within that realm. What do you hope drinkers understand about sober travelers?

Maybe that somebody isn't not drinking. That they're not drinking doesn't have to reflect on you.Because sometimes I think people, if I say I don't drink, they immediately start telling me about how they really don't drink very much because my not drinking makes them question their drinking. So just try to let somebody else's not drinking be separate from your drinking. I mean, if you think you have a drinking problem, fine.See if you can get some help. But if someone else isn't drinking, just be like, okay, fine, here's a seven up, here's a sparkling water. Here's this mocktail.You know, don't just try not to take that personally that someone else isn't drinking.

That's a good point. That's a really good point.And I never noticed that before, but I think even the situations we've been in where my wife and I have gone to social functions or whatever, and my wife says, no, I'm sorry, I don't drink. I say, I don't drink. Look, I got a hard shell.My career in law enforcement gave me a hard shell, so it didn't bother me, But I know that it bothered my wife a lot of times because they would go, oh, you're not. And then, oh, well, the same thing. I never noticed that until we just talked about it. I want to reflect back on that.I think we had more of those type of answers to us than the okay, what would you like instead? Kind of a thing.

Yeah, yeah.And if you just think about this, like when you're in one of those situations, how many times does someone say to you or your wife, oh, why don't you drink? Versus if someone asks for a beer, do you ever hear someone to say, why do you drink?

Exactly.

Like, that's just such the norm. So, I mean, you can always ask them that if they, if they drink, said, well, why aren't you drinking? You'd say, well, why are you drinking?

Oh, yeah, that's. Yes. See, you've just created a monster here.

Good.

Oh, I've got a new way too. Yeah, my wife's gonna go, what are you doing? I'm defending you. What do you hope Non Drinkers take away from.We've been talking about drinkers, but let's talk. What do we hope non Dr. Drinkers take away from this, from your work?

Oh, just that it's. It's fine not to drink. It's not the biggest deal in the world. There's plenty, plenty other things to do than drink.And if you try and just try some new things, like you're used to drinking, try some new things, some you're gonna like, some you're not gonna like, maybe you'll like things you're not even that good at. That's okay. You don't have to be really good at everything. Just find some things you enjoy doing and do them.And then you'll meet other people who enjoy doing those things. And the focal point won't just be.

Drinking and your life will move forward in a good way.

Yeah, you'll do other stuff. It's not. It's really not the end of the world. And I've met so many people who don't drink for various reasons, too.Like, there's people in recovery, but I've. I've made friends with all kinds of people who. They don't drink for religious reasons or they don't drink for medical reasons, or.One of my friends who's also a travel writer, Mary Rose Denton, she lets me use her name. She had. She had a cancer diagnosis and she had chemo.And even though she was never much of a drinker afterwards, she was like, oh, does my body want any of this at all? I don't think so. So, you know, we make people make decisions not to drink for lots of reasons. It's your business, it's nobody else's.You can share as much or as little as you want. When they ask you if they do, you can just say, no, thank you, or you can tell them your story. It's up to you.

Or you can. Yeah. So, yeah, I think that. That you have to. Again, it comes down to a choice, too.How you want to answer, how you want to explain it, and you have no responsibility to have to explain it.

That's right.

So, yeah, if you could go back to the version of yourself. I call this the almost question, and I asked all my guests this.So if you could go back to the version of yourself before the turning point, what would you tell her now?

Oh, yeah, I would tell her, kind of like I just said, it's not the end of the world. You're gonna have. You're gonna have an interesting full life with all sorts of Experiences.And if you're a really heavy drinker, like, for me, I had this one experience of just trying to get drunk all day versus, like a whole life. So it's. It really isn't that much of a choice. Looking it back.

That's brilliant. That's brilliant. Before we wrap up, I want to make sure everybody knows where to find you, so I know that you're. I'll refresh everybody's memory.The author of the Silver Travel Handbook, Navigating the World Alcohol Free, published by. And I might mispronounce this microsome.

Microcosm.

Microcosm Publishing. And yes, it even features. I could ask you about this. Her alter ego, Sober Cat. We gotta talk about that before I move. Move into this next slide.

Oh, you know, I have some pictures of Sober Cat. You're gonna show the video too, right? I'll show you something.

I am showing the video. Yes. Let me pull up your Sober Cat.

There's a few pictures I paint animals, and that's Sober Cat. So Sober Cat is a non binary hairless sphinx cat. So they have. They had an unfortunate earlier story of delinquency.If you look for it, they even have a really unfortunate hate tattoo they got when they were younger. You can see it says dogs drool. Anyway, I came up with the idea of Sober Cat because my.My book first came out as a zine and they really need illustration. So I, I came up with. With the idea of Sober Cat because just I feel like for alcoholics, the alcohol is kind of this bit of anesthesia.We put on like a bit of body armor or something. This anesthesia between us and the world or this armor.And just like a cat, a hairless sphinx cat does not have the hair to protect them from the world. You know, the ones I mean, they have this kind of wrinkly skin and stuff. So. Yes.And I was on a trip one time, a Sober travel group trip, and there were about. It was small. There were maybe seven or eight of us on there. And two of the people just happened to have hairless sphynx cats at home.Two of the people that were in recovery. And I thought. And then Sober Cat kind of got inspired by a sphinx named Phoebe.

Yeah, very cool. That's very cool. Well, you can. We can find out more about Sober Cap in this. Tell people how they can get a hold of it, please.I know you got a couple other books as well and how to get a hold of you and where to find you in your website, please.

Yeah, that's me. So you can find me@teresabergen.com where I write about sober, vegan, outdoorsy and water adventure travel. Isn't that a weird combination of stuff?I've had this website for a really long time and it just kind of evolves as my interests change. So it's been a lot of different things, but yeah, right now those are the things I'm mostly writing about. Sober, vegan, outdoorsy, water adventure.Sometimes some yoga on there, too.

Sober vegan water adventure. That's cool, though. It's got. There's a lot of stuff on there. You have a blog on there. You have books on there. You've got. You got the.You have a whole bunch of information to inspire, educate, and motivate you from numerous perspectives. And we didn't even get a chance to talk about your vegan aspect of it and what it's like to travel as a vegan.A sober vegan, actually, because I'm sure that was a little. We'll save that for another conversation.

Yeah, it could be a pain in the butt.

Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure it can. They're going, what? You're what? So I'll make sure to have those links on the website for the book and for how to get a hold of you.They'll be in the show notes and they'll also be on the episode webpage that created specifically for. For this one. Is there anything else you want to point to people towards a place to start or a piece of writing that may.That kind of means the most to you on that website when they go there?

Oh, I'll just say you're a wonderful host. I really do appreciate how thorough you've been and how you try to promote the interest of your guests. That's really, really sweet.And you do a great job of it. So thanks for doing all that.

Yeah.

And as far as something I want them to see the most, I don't know, whatever interests them. Different people or someone. Someone might like to kayak. Somebody might want to be sober, someone might want to eat something vegan. I don't know.

Or do yoga. You got some yoga on there, too. It's a very diverse website. It's got a lot of information on there, a lot of stuff on the blog.Read it, go to it, do it.

Yeah.I guess the moral of that story is that like I said, once you take away the alcohol, you have your whole life to develop all kinds of bizarre interests.

Exactly. You fill the rest of it in. And you've done a really good job about that, I tell you. Thank you.

How long? Lot of years to do it.

This is one more thing before we go. So before we go, I always ask words of wisdom. What's the truth sobriety helps you finally see.And what do you want others walking this same path to carry with them as they move through life?

Make your world bigger. Make your life bigger. Don't just sit there and drink.

Those are brilliant words of wisdom. Yes. Yes, they are. Teresa, thank you so much for being here today. I sincerely and genuinely grateful that you. You took a seat at the table.I'll make sure that everyone can reach you and the links to your books, everything. I'll be on the website, in the show notes. And again, thank you. Thank you, thank you. It's been a pleasure having this conversation with you.

Thanks. It was great talking with you, Michael.

Listening to Teresa's story, I'm reminded that sobriety isn't just the absence of alcohol. It's the presence of clarity, intention, and a deeper relationship with yourself.It's choosing to move through airports, hotels, conferences, celebrations, and the entire cultures with your eyes open and your heart awake. It makes life really enjoyable.And the truth she shared, the one sobriety helped her finally see, is a reminder that we don't get sober to shrink our lives. We get sober to expand them. You travel farther to feel deeper, deeper to belong more fully, to live with a kind of presence that can't be numbered.Her journey is proof that becoming isn't about what you leave behind. It's about what you finally allow yourself to step into. So that's a wrap for today's conversation.If this episode resonated with you, I'd love for you to subscribe, leave a review or share it with someone who could use this conversation today. You can listen wherever you enjoy podcasts, and if you like to watch, watch it a full conversation. You'll find us on YouTube.Thank you very much for being part of our community. Wherever you're headed next, please take one more thing with you. A new question, a new perspective, or perhaps a new way of seeing yourself.Because the best conversations don't end when the episode ends. They continue in a way that we live, the way we listen and the way we see another. So until next time, I'm Michael Hurst.Thanks for listening to this episode of One more thing.

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