From a Southern Mill Village to the World: Heritage, Identity & Belonging | Donald Williams

Hey, one more thing before you go.Let me ask you something.Have you ever found yourself far from home only to realize that home never really left you?Or wonder why certain memories, certain smells, certain family traditions still shape you?Who you are decades later today isn't simply a conversation about one man's journey.It's an invitation to explore your own.So just for a moment, close your eyes and, and imagine waking up to the sound of a cotton mill whistle echoing across a small South Carolina village.Front porches are already coming to life.Neighbors know one another by name.Gardens feed families.Church isn't just a place you go.It's a part of the rhythm of the community.And if someone tells you they have 80 first cousins, well, that isn't unusual.It's simply family.Now imagine carrying that place with you across the United States, across the Pacific, into the South, Kore, Japan, and everywhere else your life takes you.Because perhaps the places that shape us never really disappear.They simply become the stories we spend our lives learning to understand.How's it going to help you?Let's find out.I'm your host, Michael Herst.Welcome to one more thing before you go.Today's guest, Donald Williams, has spent a lifetime exploring that truth as the co author of Born of Nothing.His journey has taken him from a small South Carolina cotton mill village to cultures around the world.Yet through every mile he traveled, one question remained.Donald grew up in a South Carolina cotton mill village, a close knit community where heritage wasn't something you studied, it was something you lived.He would become the first of his family to graduate from a major university before living and working throughout the United States, South Korea and Japan.He explores family, heritage, food, faith, travel, music, culture, and ultimately what it belong, what it means to belong.Donald, welcome to the show.

Oh, it's great to be here.Thank you for having me on as a guest.I appreciate it.

You know, it's an amazing journey that you've had.Your music is absolutely wonderful.We'll talk about that in a little while.I think that you've taken and embraced your country heritage and kind of spread it across the world, which I'm kind of grateful for because it's, it's special.

That's.I like that.And this is what I tell everyone about my music and things like that.I do.They're personal to me.It was, I'm not writing for another audience.I'm writing for me.And a lot of, a lot of times those songs were things that I needed to heal internally and I needed to do it for Myself and I share it with other people and hopefully it'll, it'll bless someone else as well.But the songs I, I write, they're just stories of things that happen to me.They're not far fetched ideas.

Music is storytelling, music is culture.Music is an opportunity for us to all think about how it affects us, where it came from and, and we can all resonate with it is a universal language, isn't it?

Absolutely.

Yeah.You can hear it everywhere.Before we talk about where life has taken you, I as a storyteller, like to start at the beginning, where everything began.Can you take us back to that very first picture that comes to mind when you think about growing up in that mill village?

Yes sir, I, I but I'm going to go way back before me, I'm going to go back to my grandparents and please do.A lot of people find this hard to believe, but my first babysitter that I remember was born in 1877.That sounds kind of crazy in a way, but she was my great grandmother.And both my grandfathers and grandmothers, they were all born right around 1900.One of them was 1897.And so I grew up with these people and getting to hear their stories.But you have to realize where they came from.They were sharecroppers who came off the land and moved into an industry that was becoming predominant in the Carolinas and that was working in the cotton mill industries.Of course, all the farms are growing cotton.And then the industrial revolution made it possible for them to mass produce these products.And so my grandparents, they worked in mills that was producing blue jean material that just, you know, blue jean pants.And this was in Rock Hill or York County, South Carolina.Both of my grandfathers were child laborers who went to work in the mill at the age of nine.My father, when he came along, he was 14.He was going from the eighth grade to the ninth grade and he had to change schools and he had to walk by the mill to go to his new school.And he said, why am I going to school?I have no hope, I have no future I other than here in the mill.And at the age of 14, my father went to work full time in the cotton mill.My mother at the age of 16.And so that was the environment in which that, you know, that I was born into is this cycle of poverty of the cycle of story of that you belong to the mill, that the meal provided you a job, they provided you a house, they provided food at the store.You probably went to a meal, church, a meal School if you got sick, you went to a meal doctor we had meal Christmas parties and that's what we did.And so.But you had that environment, that community.And as I talk about, I had 42 aunts and uncles, 80 something first cousins and they were all, you know, mostly they were all right there.And you lived together.And this is what I'll tell everyone is I didn't know that I was poor.This was the world that I was, I was brought into.This is the world that I was born into.I thought we were rich because I saw people who were more poor than we were.But at least we had food on the table and we had a roof over our head.And so you don't know what you don't know.But I was actually very happy in this environment.

Yeah, that in itself is an extraordinary opportunity for people to understand where that comes from.I relate to that.We talked about this a little bit ago.My grandparents on my father's side and great grandparents and my grand uncles and everything came from the coal mines and same thing, coal mines, poor.They were all very poor.They all nine kids, you understand this.A lot of people don't really see that this day and age.They had one house, they had nine brothers and sisters.You know, my mother did well, eight brothers and sisters.She was number nine and very poor.Came from very poor beginnings.And I think that creates something within us, that something I like what you said, you said I thought we were rich compared to some of these other people.I think that comes from having an extraordinary extended family and having that type of a close knit atmosphere because you all support each other in those cases.And I think that in itself search.

Oh I was, I said, I tell everyone I was surrounded by love and so that's why I thought things were great.And then we talked about, I've talked about earlier today about running through ddt, smoke bombs and all this stuff, you know, and all those things that went on in my childhood.But I, you know, I was born into this environment.But then my parents, they actually moved away from the mill hill when I was a boy.But I still spent my summers and most of my time there.But the house that we moved to, there was an ownership part there that my parents could actually own something.But my neighbors, they were so poor they didn't, they had dirt floors, you know, they had all this and they didn't have a car, they didn't have this.And a lot of people don't understand that, that you know, that's really not that far by, you know, we're talking 60 years ago that here in the United States that it was.That was the way people lived.But that was my view, was I was like, well, we've got this small house that's about the size of my living room now that six of us were living in.And I thought everything was great because the other people I saw, it was like they didn't have.But now the other part, you talk about the family, of helping each other.If someone got sick, if someone was hurting, if someone had a need, you helped each other.And that was something that was instilled in me early on from my grandfathers.My grandfather Williams was actually an orphan.Both his parents had died of influenza when he was 12 years old, he had to go live with an uncle.And so I think that also instilled in him the concept of that you help people, that you help others.And that was throughout my whole life.That's what I saw.And people.I remember people coming to my grandfather William's house, knocking on the door and be, Mr. Williams, my children are hungry.Have you got some food to spare?And I said, remember this?This was a day there was only a water pump, maybe a hand pump on the back porch.There may be one electrical light in the house, in the living room.There's no indoor plumbing.There's a house out back, but you had a garden, probably had a pig or a cow or something.And my grandfather, and even in that poverty, he would give what he.He had to other people.And I know, my mother's told me many times my daddy got really sick for a long period of time.And she said his daddy would bring groceries.Her daddy would bring groceries to the house because they didn't have enough food to feed.And.And that's just the way it was.You depended on one another.You didn't pin on.You didn't depend on the meal.You didn't depend on the government.You depended on your family, which I think is important.

You know, growing up in that kind of a community kind of shapes the person that you become.

Oh, absolutely.

From that, you know, it gave me, you know, we go not quite as in depth as that, but my mom, like I said, grew up in a house that it was one house with her, a couple aunts and uncles, as well as her, you know, other brothers and sisters, my grandma, my grandpa, very small house, same thing.And whenever we'd have Thanksgiving or something, when they all moved to Colorado, they left West Virginia, they left Mississippi, left West Virginia, they all moved to Colorado.We all moved in the same apartment complex, actually.So even in spite of duty doing that, my aunts and my uncles and my cousins, we'd all meet.There was a huge apartment complex.They had like nine buildings and then huge lawns out front, and we take up the whole thing basically.You know, it was kind of.It was kind of fun.But it does gives you the.I think it gives you the.The heart and the soul and the compassion in humanity because you experience it and then you.You pass it on, which is like a wonderful opportunity.

Oh, yeah.And talk about the size of a family.Now when my family, either side, if they have a family reunion, we have to rent a.A fellowship hall or something to go to because there's so many people.But that's.That's great, though.You know, you love your family.

Yeah.Even after you spread across the country, you.You.It's still.Still interconnected, which I think is kind of cool.Do you think was there someone in the village other than your grandpa or your parent who changed, like, quietly changed your life without you realizing it?Do you think of somebody that kind of stood out a little bit, that kind of helped you evolve?

Well, the thing about that is most of the people on the Mill hill, we call it the Mill Hill instead of a mill village, they were all related to me pretty much.And so I do think about my uncles that they were just.And I will say this, they were wonderful.What I would say, men of God who just love their community, love their family, and would do what was right.But that.That didn't always happen.I did have one uncle who was, I would say, very evil.We didn't know it at the time.We didn't know about looking at him.As a matter of fact, he.He would profess to be like this Bible teacher, man of God, deacon, all this.And when he would go home at night, he was the most evil man that you can imagine of what he did to his family.And as a result of that, you know, his children end up once on death row, once in life in prison for murder.And so you see that as well.So when you ask that question, I'm sorry, I'm throwing that in there.But, you know, you have those good influences of people, but with that many aunts and uncles.For me, it was always.It seemed like it was always those.Those aunts and uncles who just always were there to tell me a story.Maybe we were sitting on the front porch of one of the mill homes shelling beans or something, and they're talking about how their life was or some story about growing up.And it just, it just resonated with me that I love these stories and I love what they said.But then also one of my cousins,.

I had a cousin, I have a.

Cousin named Ricky who was two months younger than me and he grew up really as a brother, as my best friend and still is and we still talk.He'll send me just texts and randomly in the middle of day and just go, Donald, I love you.You're my, you're my closest friend.I love you.And you know those people, you know, I think about that a lot of times even though they were family, you know, it's maybe different, it's because of the people you, you come up with.Now there were other people who influenced me, some, a few teachers along the way.But they're on that, on that mill environment.There was, it was such a large family.Almost every direction I looked the people were all relatives.

That has its advantages, but it also has its, I won't say pitfalls but you know, it gives you, you, you, you see that, that close knit environment kind of, I think puts blinders on at times where you don't get to see what's really out here in the larger picture until you go out and experience that.You became the first in your family to graduate from a major university, didn't you?

Yes, that's right.And that was, that's the next thing.That's the part of it.It's like how did I.Because I was in such a sheltered environment of this was the expectation that you, when you get out of school, you go to work in the meal.And I'll say this, my parents expectation for their children because they had both quit school.I said my daddy 8th grade education, my mother a 10th grade education.Their expectation was they would be joyous if we would were to graduate from high school.Well, I had three older brothers, there were four of us, four boys and all three of them.But their expectation also was you graduate school, you get married and you move out.And all three of my brothers and one two weeks after he graduated, they all graduated high school.But they all got married within just from weeks to a couple of months.They all moved out.They all, they got like a two of them had single wide trailers, little tiny place.They had a place to put it, you know.And they moved in and they started their life.And then when it came to me it was like, well, I could do something different.Now the concept was that men, if they tried to get away from that Environment they may with join the military.College was not an option.That was not anything anyone even dreamed of.That was just not a reality.The only way you could do that was maybe if you were some super sports star or something, and maybe some school would pull you.But that was not even a reality.A few of my uncles, or I'll take that back.Most of my uncles tried to escape by joining the military.A lot of them were in World War II.My grandfather McDowell at the age of 40s, in his 40s, he joined the military in World War II.But they would always come back.They would go to the military for two or four years.They would always come back.They'd always come back.And working in the mill.And so for me, I just had a different concept.And I tell people, you know, you had.We had television and we had a few black and white stations.And I would see, this is going to sound so weird for inspirational concept, but I would see Tarzan movies, and I would see that there's another continent, you know, there's another place.And then I remember seeing a globe for the first time in school, and the teacher would go, this is where you live, right here.And you would see this big world.And so for me, it was like, what else is out there?What else is it that I could do?And so that was that seed put in me of I could get out of this situation.I don't have to go to work in a mill.I don't have to live here, that there is another world out there.There's nothing wrong with this world.My brothers all very.Were very successful.They're still married to the same women they were married to, born in 50 years ago.You know, they're very happy in their life, but I just chose a different path.

Well, I think that, you know, the path that you chose, you.You traveled the world and you were able to kind of bring a message to other people across the world.You became an educator from that perspective.You became a writer.You got into music.There's a whole lot of things we're going to delve into.But can you take us back to the first moment that you kind of stepped off the plane, like in.In South Korea?Has you been on a plane before that?

Yeah.That's kind of funny, because I saw the job advertisement I had been a teacher for many years, 26 years, I guess.And then I saw this advertisement and it goes.And it said, you can work for the Department of Defense as a science teacher overseas.And so I applied and I was literally I was hoping for Europe.That's what my concept was.

I'll.

I'll get the land in Germany or somewhere like that.This is going to be good.I didn't know it.They have a rule in that, in that job.Was that ever.Who offered you the job first?You couldn't turn it down.If you turn it down, you were kicked out.And so.And then they would also allow South Korea, those places, to interview first.And so South Korea called, and I talked to them.It was Seoul and Daegu.Two schools called, and they interviewed me.And then they.They called back.And then Germany called, and the lady from Germany calls, or.I'm sorry, it was Italy.And she goes, we would love to have you.And I said, well, I think South Korea may have dibs on me already.And sure enough, so my wife and I, you know, you.You basically, you don't sell things.You just kind of prepare to go.You start doing research.And in my mind, you know, I had been to Charlotte, North Carolina.I had been to Atlanta.I'd actually been to Washington, D.C. so I thought I had seen the big city, right?I thought I had seen the big.The big way.Well, technically, I'd actually, I'd been in New York once.And so I thought, man, I've been places.I know what this is.And then my wife and I, we get on the plane, tell her, say our goodbyes, and we ride.We arrive in South Korea, and I'm thinking, I'm going to see this third world country, you know, because that's the concept you get.You know, you have the concept of South Korea from, like, the TV shows, MASH or, you know, some things like that.What are you going to see?And I remember landing at the Incheon airport and thinking, you know, what is this going to be?And we're, you know, we're.We're looking out the.The wind of the plane, you know, trying to see what we can see.We knew we were close, but you come out in Incheon Airport and it's like this modern, great airport.And then you get in a taxi and you start riding to Seoul and you start seeing these big high rises.You go, is this Seoul?And the Korean taxi cabin.Could drink, drive a little bit of.I mean, could talk a little bit of English and.Or speak a little bit of English.And he would say, no, no, no, no.Wait, wait, wait.And then you come up into this, one of the largest cities on earth with anywhere from 7 to 20 million people, and you're going right to the Middle of it, where the military base is, and that's where you're deposited.And so it was wild, to say the least, that it was overwhelming to us.We did not know what.Once again, we did not know what we did not know.And let's say we were a long way from the Mill Hill culture that, you know, that we knew as children.And we got there, and to see that was just amazing.I ended up.This is going to be a little weird here.I ended up living in Trump Tower on the Han, which is the Han river, their main river, like their Mississippi river that goes.Flows through the middle of town.Now, that sounds really weird, but it was like the way the compensation went or where I could live and these kind of things.I. I never thought that I could do that or be in that kind of situation, but.And I think about that.To go from that poverty on the Mill Hill to living in Trump Tower in Seoul, South Korea was a world, a life changer.But I will say this.So I never denied who I was, where I was from, or my beginning or my roots.As a matter of fact, I held on to that tightly, and people would even say, you know, your Southern accent.Why.Why are you holding on to that?It's because this is who I am.

Who you are.

I will not deny who I am.And.And I never will.

Although.Seoul, South Korea.You're not in South Carolina anymore.

No, I'm not in South Carolina.And they would laugh at.They would laugh at me.Not so much my wife, but I would try to speak Korean.You know, you try to learn the language.You try to do that.Because, you know, even though I'm working for the Department of Defense, I'm not living on the military base.I'm living out of the base, off the base with.Surrounded by Koreans, you know, and you're shopping in the Korean markets and stuff, and so you try to learn it, and.And I'm going like, anyon Haseo.And they just look at me like, what are you?And they would laugh at me, and they would say, please stop, because both of them speak English.And they would go.They said I sounded like I was trying to speak Korean through my nose.They would laugh at me.And so.But yeah, it was.It was different.Just different.

That's.That's pretty cool.That's.That's.That is an experience.I. I would have to say absolutely an experience.Look, I. I have to touch on this as well, because I. I do culture on this show.I do food on this show.I've Talked to chefs from all over the world.I appreciate, you know, both from cultural perspective, the food perspective.Tell me about.Because I've never been to South Korea.Tell me about a meal, one meal that changed how you.Maybe how you understand another cultural perspective when you got to South Korea.Because Southern food as South Korean food is kind of a world of difference, isn't it?

Yes, but.All right, you're going to have to give me a little lead away on this, because I cannot talk just about one meal.They have.They have soup that is.It's called jigga.And they have.The first.One of the first words I learned was Buddha jigga, but it means soldier stew.It sounds kind of funny.Buddha jigga.But jigga means soup is what it means in it.Had it would have spam and things like that in it.But then a lot of the Korean food is you cook yourself.They bring you the meat and they have like a fire pin in front of you.You cook it.They bring all these condiments with it.Kimchi, which is a wonderful food, is basically pickled cabbage or radish or something like that.This spicy.They put a lot of pepper in it.Their food is very, very, very spicy.But.And they eat everything.The silkworm larva, I. Sheep intestines.I did all these things.But I have to tell you one story that's great.I went with a friend of mine to a seafood place out on the coast one time.And we go in, we just see.You would order by just looking at pictures on the wall or whatever.But this was a family style seafood place, you know, and seafood in South Carolina is great.You know, we know this.I love seafood.And my wife had said that I would eat anything.But they bring this out to my friend and I, and it was a great big platter of food, and it was kind of piled up like in a pyramid kind of type thing.It was all kind of shrimp and crabs and things that, you know, you just look at and you think, oh, my goodness, I can't believe someone eat this.But up on top, they had this big white piece of fish.It just looked so good.It just looks succulent.And I thought, okay, it's at the top.So this is going to be the best thing.So I'm going to eat everything else before I get to the top.The top is going to be the end story for me.And so my friend agreed.So we're eating shrimp, and so they eat head and all.So we're trying to do like they do.He goes to the bathroom.And I thought, I'm going to try this fish while it's gone.I put it in my mouth and it tasted.There's not a good way to say this.It tasted like urine or ammonia.And I instantly spit it out of my mouth and I thought, what did I just put in my mouth?Well, I thought, well, wait till my friend comes back.I'm not going to tell him.And he came back and I said, hey, you need to try that fish.And he put it in his mouth, same thing.He spit it out.The lady came over and what it was, it was a dish they have in South Korea called pickled skate.If you've seen a skate, not, not a stingray, but like a skate, it's shark type organism.And they don't have a, they don't have a mechanism to get rid of the urine.It goes through their skin.And so Koreans will take it and pickle it.And so you're basically eating like pickled urine is what it tasted like.And they were very gracious.They said, we thought you knew what you were ordering.And they said, we are not going to charge you for this.But now I don't want to be disrespectful to them that their food, it is my fault.Favorite food on earth.I love it.It's spicy.And Koreans, South Koreans have the best fried chicken in the world.They have a dish called, they have a thing they call chimac.It's chicken and beer.And so they eat fried chicken and beer.And you'll see them.And now it's not like, you know how we have like a leg of bob.They don't.They take a hatchet and they chop it up in a bunch of pieces.And I don't know how they don't have a thousand people die from choking on chicken bones every year.But their fried chicken, they double fried in some kind of rice thing, some kind of way.And it is wonderful if you've never had if any Korean food to eat.If you ever see South Korean fried chicken, it is better than any meal that we have in the United States.Even Southern fried chicken, it is better.And my grandma used to make some.

Really good southern fried chicken.

And my mother will slap me for saying that.But I'm telling you, Korea, South Korean fried chicken is a delicacy that everyone on earth should experience at some point.Now I had, I had some of the best meals in my life there.Absolutely.

That's very cool.You think you could get that South Korean fried chicken here in the Us.

Yeah, they actually have some.I'm near Atlanta, Georgia.Today.They actually have some places down there, down there that actually serve it.And it's, it's kind of a.It's a double fry thing.I've actually looked at it and tried to do it myself.I cannot mimic what they do, but it is really, really good.

That's cool.That's very cool.They.They.Yeah, the, the.Would you call the urine fish?

It's a skate.They.I wish I could remember the name.I mean, there's some big long Korean name for it, but they literally take a skit.I say a skateboard.I'm a fisherman and a skate.It's not a stingray.It's a.It's in the fish order or family.I mean, shark order.And it's, it's just.They'll.You'll see them.You can eat it fresh.But this was not fresh.Like I said, it was pickled.It's aged.And so think about eating.It's.You cannot explain it.And you look it up, it's considered like one of the top five worst tasting foods on earth.But they developed, they.Some people over there have developed a taste for this.

I'll be sure to avoid that one.

Yes.I don't see how.But my friend, my friend still hates me for what I did to him that day.But I wanted him to experience the same thing I experienced.

That's funny.Every time you see him.Do you remember that day?You did this to me.

Yeah.He'll get me back someday.Yes.

Do you think that was, Was there ever a conversation that you had that changed the way you understood yourself?Maybe from over there?What did you learn within yourself?Because you, you went from the environment in, in your.That we just spoke about.You went from there to this close knit, you know, mill family to.To the big city from there.Did, did you.What did you learn?What did you take away from that?

I mean, I learned so much because I lived, like I said, I lived in a different culture, but in Japan and in Korea and they're totally different.You know, they are two totally different cultures.And in that I lived in Okinawa, which is a different culture.It's so different from mainland Japan.And they only even claim that they were.Actually, it's called ryuku and they're more like Pacific Islanders really.So I had a great, great experiences, but this story is maybe a little bit different.Growing up, you would have this concept in the south of say, women taking advantage of men in a way, you know, like Especially like younger women taking advantage of older men who may have money or whatever.And I was.I was with some people one day, and I. I will just say I made a comment about it.I said, you know, she's just.She just loves him, or she's just with him.She's just going to marry him for the money.And an Asian lady was quick to correct me.And she said, first of all, that's your culture, not our culture.She said, in our culture is the concept of that she loves him, he loves her, she's getting what she needs, he's getting what he needs.And what concern is that of you?And it was.I know that's kind of a really bad story to say that, in a way, but for me, it taught me something that different cultures have these different aspects of what's right and wrong of.Of, you know, what would.What we would think would be acceptable.And so I was quick to understand.Don't criticize other cultures.They were, you know, they were raised in a different environment, same thing as we have in the United States.Different regions have different concepts or of what's kind of maybe right and wrong.But that's what I saw there.And it taught me that lesson that to not judge someone else, don't judge them by my standards, but never judge anyone really for anything.But don't.Especially don't judge them by my standards.Let, you know, they're living their life according to their culture.I had a similar experience with a gentleman in.In Okinawa and made a comment one time about people breaking the law or doing things that were wrong.And he made this quick comment.He.He says, what.What do you consider wrong?And, you know, I go down through this list where you, you know, you obey your parents, you don't lie, you don't steal, you don't murder, you know, these things.And he goes, I don't do those things.I don't.I don't lie.He goes, I've never told a lie.I've never been disrespectful to my parents.He goes, I've never murdered.I've never stolen.And he goes, you know, and then he's like, well, would you consider me a good man?You know, and so it's that concept of.Of what people would think are right or wrong, you know, and he may have something in his life that maybe he would look at me and think that I had done something wrong.You know, maybe it was some protocol that they had.Maybe, you know, it could have been anything.And so I. I realized that concept that you have to be forgiving, accepting, non judgmental when you're living in another country is very, very important.

And if I may say so, I think that also goes across communities as well.I think that when you we as a police, good career in law enforcement.And I've seen people at their worst.I've seen the best people at their worst.I've walked into poverty, I've walked into people sleeping in caves and you know, down by the river and literally down by the river and in the woods and intense and on the street kind of a thing.And you know, it is it.You build an understanding that we're all still human beings and that we all have our own trials and tribulations and that we all have our own the way that we see the world and how we're living in it and how we fit in it.And I think that, you know, you especially with your book and the stuff that I've heard and the song that you've written and things like that, I think you, I think have realized that even from that perspective that home wasn't simply a place anymore, but it's something you carried with you and inside you all the time anyway.But it gave you a wider perspective of what home actually means.Can I, can I touch there?

Yeah.And I'll say this.One of the.I had, one of the greatest lessons I had was as a school teacher.I had to go around the room one day and ask students what race they claim to be.And I had a student who, he said, I'm human.And I said excuse me.And he goes, I'm of the human race.Enough said.And I thought this is the greatest lesson I had learned in a long time.And then that concept of taking the community with me.And that's what I said.I always have admired my grandparents and I think about them constantly.I mean even though they've been passed many, many years years, they, they were all alive until I was in my 30s.And the lessons that they taught me were lifelong lessons.And it's also the lessons that I wanted to teach my children and my grandchildren that there's worth in everyone.And, and that's what I said.My, my grandfathers, I didn't see, I didn't see them as being, they never looked down on anyone.Regardless of who they were.They were always willing to help and, and lift people up.And that was just that lifelong lesson within me, that kindness that I saw that I did try to take everywhere I went.Now I've failed many times.And like I said, there was that one.That point, you know, I said, you know, I was judgmental.Now a woman goes, how dare you?You know, how dare you think that way?And, you know, but you.You learn those lessons.You know, we all have lessons we learn every day.But for me, my parents, my grandparents, the people that I was surrounded with, that love, it has carried me everywhere I've went.

What do you think is traveling that far away made you feel closer to your roots?

I'm sorry, say that again.

Do you think traveling, like, the worldwide traveling that you've done, you.Do you feel that it has made you closer to your roots?

Actually, maybe.No.I wish it.I wish I could say yes, because being exposed to the world, I've.I know that I've seen things and done things that other people have not.And so a lot of times, maybe I'm thinking more from a mindset of a world, somebody who's lived, you know, outside of the United states for about 13 or 14 years.And.And I'm not saying this in arrogance or anything.I'm not saying that, but I'm saying I've seen other things that other people have not seen.And a lot of times, like when I see classmates that are people I graduated high school with, they know where I've been and the things I've done, They're like, tell us stories.Tell us stories.And so I don't.I don't.I want to say it hasn't changed me, but I know that it has just from experience.But that's what I said.You know, I want to say that I've stayed true to my roots, but I also know that that's almost an impossibility when you've seen the rest of the world.What's that?You know that old saying, how do you keep them down on the farm when they've seen gay Perry?I know that sounds weird.I don't know if you remember that saying or not, but I do.You know, I've been around the world and the things I've seen, but I still cherish so much the upbringing I have, but also cherish the new experiences I had and the learning I did there as well.I carry all that with me as well.

Well, I think it goes back to the statement that you made about human.I think as a human being, we need to understand that we as an individual as well as society, need to grow.We need to expand ourselves, expand our awareness and our understanding of other cultures, other.Other ways of life, other opportunities, and that even in spite of where we live, where we come from, we are all connected.We are all human beings.We just live in a different way sometimes.And experiencing that gives us an opportunity to have, I think, a deeper understanding of society and culture as a whole.

Yeah, you know, I. I taught and I said, I'm not.I'm not bragging or anything.I'm just saying I had had an opportunity to have over 5,000 students in my classroom over the years, which is amazing.Teaching that many students.And you see so many different personalities.I did learn something really big along the way, is there are so many factors that go into someone's success or.Or failure.

Yeah.

That, you know, but it really comes down to your choices that you make in your own life.You know, sometimes it doesn't always turn that way.Sometimes life may turn out bad for you, but you still have choices of knowing right from wrong and choosing a better path.And I saw so many students that, let's just say, who end up in prison, who end up dead or end up failures, but also saw so many students that ended up successful and, you know, bright and intelligent and, you know, whatever they may be doing, just, you know, you see that and you.You're happy with that.But there's, you know, in that.You see that.That concept of people being accepting, of being loving of one another, you know, being sure of themselves, and that.That goes a long way with success.And I will say that same thing with my.My grandparents.Even though, like I said, I was the first person to go to college and for me to go, you know, they looked at me like, what are you talking about?How.How are you going to go?Where are you going to get the money?

What.

You know, what.What are you going to.What are you talking about?But, you know, for me, it was like I had that concept.It's like, I can.I can do something else.I can be something else.And, you know, I was lucky enough to.To be able to succeed in that, but with a lot of.I'm not.Like I said, I'm not patting myself on the back.I always tell them it was God's grace.God gave me a family.God surrounded me with good people that helped me to realize how to make good decisions.

Well, I think it all boils down to choice.You made a really good choice and wanting to kind of expand your horizons.Not necessarily for anything more than I want to experience more, I want to learn more, I want to be a bigger person.And nobody can fault you for that.Absolutely not.And what I think we as human beings need to understand that.We have countless, I can't tell you how many times, sitting in front of another suspect or somebody I arrested and they're going, I just don't say you had a choice.That's the best thing.I'm going to put.This is going to happen to you because this is your choice that you made.But when this is done, you need to sit there while you're sitting in jail, sitting in prison, whatever the case may be, sitting in court, and wonder whether or not the choices you make in life can be changed.The choices in your life can be thought about before you make that choice.Am I making the right choice?Am I going to do the right thing?You've done it brilliantly because you've come out of it with educating the masses.You have inspired, motivated and educated people.And that's, I think that's gold within itself.Have you ever thought about being a writer during this whole time period?Or is that something you, you kind of decided to sit down one day and go, I think I need to put this in words.

I had done a lot of writing, technical writing, but it was the last 13 years of my educational career.I said, I taught almost 30 years, then the next 13 years I was what was called an education research analyst.And so I was writing a lot of technical information, statistical information, things like that.And then when I retired, a friend of mine, a college roommate, reached out who had a similar experience as me of growing up.He was told that he could not make it as his teachers told his parents that he was, that he was not fit for anything other than low level classes.And he ends up being a lieutenant colonel in the army and serving 30 years and getting two masters.And so he reached out to me and he said, he said, hey, Donald said, we have similar experiences of people basically going, you know, you can't do this.He said, would you help me write a book?This was actually his fourth book, book.And he's, he asked me, he said, would you co author it with me?And I said, you know, I've always wanted to do this.I was getting ready to retire.And I will say this, it was a two year adventure to do this, to write this, to research it, do all the things that you have to do to get this done.Even though he was experienced at it, it was a very difficult thing.But then also talking to a lot of people, talking to my family, you know, basically getting permissions, telling the stories and things that went on.Also did the audio version and I didn't realize how difficult that would be to read my own writing over a recording.It was really difficult.But you know, I'd always thought about could I do this?And now I have.I'm actually working on a psychic book now.It does take a long time, it is not easy but it was very enjoyable and just very rewarding.And once again, just like this would say with my songs as well, I'm not doing it for the masses, I'm really doing it for me.I know that sounds really self centered as well, but it's like can I do it?Can I do this for prosperity that my grandchildren, children will read this to know where we came from, to know the experiences because people are going to forget.They don't know.They, they.My grandchildren didn't talk to my grandparents, but I did.And I can, I can tell them, I can show them, I can record it into a manner that they can get it.Now back to that concept you were talking about people knowing right from wrong, that kind of thing.I've mentioned earlier about my two cousins.They had, they lived with a very evil father but they also had very good grandparents and they knew, they knew the difference between right and wrong.They chose to do wrong.They had, they had examples of good but they chose to do wrong.So I just wanted to kind of throw that in there.

Sometimes that happens and unfortunately those are the ones that are still in prison or those are the ones that you know, take.They're there for life.

And that's in the book, Part of that's in the book that, that story of that concept of that, you know, you can, you can be this kind of parent.And a lot of it is about the parenting kind of concept of how do you, how do you become who you are?You know.And like in my co authors sample, his parents did not take the teacher's words.You know, they, they were like well if that's what they say.But we're still going to make him the best he can be.We're going to get, we will give him the opportunity to succeed and he made us a lot of self motivation as well.You know when someone tells you, especially a teacher tells you you can't make it, you believe it.And I had the same thing.Even when I was accepted to Clemson University I had teachers just go, you won't make it.

Which is really disheartening when you have a teacher that's supposed to be encouraging you, giving you positive, you know, strokes forward to say that to you.

Yeah, and I'm not Saying, I use that as a motor method of motivation, because I don't think I did.But I almost listened to them, you know, I almost thought, well, they told me I couldn't make it.But, you know, from that, I think it gave me the concept of when they said I couldn't make it, I thought, well, why are they telling me I can't make it?And so I went back and I did the remedial work that I needed so that I would be successful.I didn't really use it as a.As like, I'm mad at them and I'm going to show the world.I looked at it from a concept of, well, maybe they're telling me the truth and they're worried about me, and so what if.Why are they saying I'm not going to make it?And so that's the things I worked on.And.And so maybe I've never really thought of that, thought of it in those terms.But they, even though they were telling me, you're not going to make it,.

They helped me kind of a motivation.I think it motivated you a little bit to kind of explore a little deeper, which I think is cool.Writing a book is often an act of discovery, but not just for the reader, but for the writer.My father was a writer.I grew up in a newsroom.My father died at a very early age.He was only 39 years old, so he wasn't around for a long time.But I grew up in a newsroom with him.I remember sitting there and this is back when they.And you and I know this, back when they were.All you hear is 30 typewriters.They didn't have computers.When he was a writer, everything was that.You'd hear the paper come out of it and the ones that were messed up, you hear them cuss a little bit, roll it up in a ball and throw it, and then start over again.But I know that there were things that he wanted to write and almost didn't write.Was there a chapter that you almost didn't write?

Yes, sir, there is one in there now.Go back.They didn't have computers, though, until I was getting my doctorate in education from Clemson in the 1990s.First time.And then I learned on a manual typewriter.And I.And I told someone this the other day.I was terrible.I got up to about 12 words a minute was about all I could do.My fingers just didn't work.But, yeah, there is a very bad chapter.And I'll tell everyone this book is not for the faint of Heart.And it's not for.I would say it's not for children.There's one chapter, and I'm even reluctant to say the title of it's called Slick Legging, and it's a very bad term.There's something that happens in prison, but it's.It deals with something that very bad that happened to me as a child.I'll just put it that way.And it changed my life.Still change.It still psychologically is in the back of my mind.Let's just say this.Let's just say some bad things happened to me as I was a child.And it is in the book.I'm not going to say it here, but it absolutely devastated me in my life.This all is always there and I didn't want to write about it.The editor, the publishers and stuff, and the co author, we were talking and we were talking about, you know, what are some other things we could tell.And there were some stories came up and I said, well, you know what?Never really told anyone this, but this happened to me and I'm willing to write about it.And so I wrote the story out.And of course they, you know, they wanted, they wanted that included in the book and because it is a real part of what that heritage was like.And it was because if something happened in your family, such as incest or rape or molestation or even beating children, any kind of things like that, now I will say my parents were great.My parents were wonderful, godly people that were just loving.These are other people, other influences in my life.But what would happen if you reported any kind of thing like that in the mill?Your parents could lose their job.And if your parents lost your job, then you were cast into worse poverty.And so you had to be real careful.So a lot of times things were swept under, you know, kind of under the rug is what we say that, you know, nobody needs to know about this story, you know, no one needs to know, you know, what's going on in this house.Because if you did, you know, if it got bad enough your daddy lost his job or your uncle lost his job, and then, then that whole family is cast out.And what do you do then?And then also your.Your labeled.Your.The person who may have turned them in is labeled worse than the other person.My parents watched one of my uncles beat their son with a.A power cord and they didn't turn him in.And the reason they said they didn't, they said it was horrible.Child abuse, abuse.This was early 1960s.They said the Reason they didn't was because if they turned them in, the family would basically kick my parents out of the family for turning in their brother, because that was the way they protected society.And I discuss this in the book.That concept of things that are hidden that you don't want known, and there's a lot of reasons for that.And, you know, in today's society, it's different.You can tell things.But in that.In that culture, in those times, a lot of things were hidden that you just did not talk about.And that was a part of the book that's.It's actually devastating to me.As a matter of fact, I will not let my mother read the book because I don't want my mother to read that one chapter.

To read the chapter.Well, that's.That's profound, actually.And I. I hope that it gave you an opportunity to at least maybe work through or let go of some of that.

And mentally I had already worked through it just in my own life.I'd never been to a therapist.I've never done anything like that.But it was just something.It was like I realized there had to be a point that I had to let go of, that I could not let what someone else did to me define my life.But it still is.Still is there.You cannot erase memories.

Yeah.Well done on that.On that aspect, I wish you that it doesn't come back and haunt you any longer.What truth kind of surprised you by your writing?Born for nothing.

What surprised me more than anything, some of the historical parts that we came up with in the south, that I had never heard this story before.The south had a hookworm problem in the 1880s, 1890s, that was devastating the Southeast.That I had never learned this in history.That was actually causing people to be unproductive and.And really just lethargic.And they called it a sleeping.Like a sleeping sickness.And someone discovered that it was a hookworm infestation.They had a hookworm de.Infestation campaign that was supported by the Rockefeller foundation and that basically eradicated hookworms from the Southeast.I did not know that before we started this study or before we started writing.And we.We write this in the book, but it's just a weird part of history I'd never heard before.

I've never heard that either.When we get off.When we get out of this.I might have to look that up.

Yeah, it's kind of a weird thing, the hook.Hookworm infestation of the Southeast.But it's in the book.It's maybe 10 or 15 pages to read.And it tells the story of how the Rockefellers actually funded a million dollars.And there were actually newspapers who produced.

A lot of money back then.

Oh, yeah, it was a huge amount of money, but they, but they were doing it from this standpoint.They were looking at like, how can we make these people more productive?Yeah, you know.

Yeah, my bad.Yeah, I guess they got their money back.

Yeah.

From that perspective, you lived in different countries.You've experienced different cultures, different faith, different traditions, different ways of life.After everything that you've seen, what do you believe connects all people?

Well, you know, going back to that when that student said, I'm human, but, you know, we all are human.Here's a funny thing.We all laugh alike.We all, we all have the same laughter.And that was something that I noticed, that no matter where you go in the world now, people will laugh at different kinds of jokes and they think different things are funny, but people still laugh.All people cry, all people get sad, all people get happy.All people love joy.All people want to be accepted.And when you start, when you start seeing those things and you see how humanity really is, we really are all cousins.You know, I said I have 80 something first cousins.Well, I have 8 billion cousins because we're all cousins here on this earth.And we all have those same emotions, those same desires.We want to live, we want to succeed, we want our family and friends to succeed mostly unless there's something wrong with you mentally.But, you know, we all care for each other.And, and I've learned that, that, and that that's not just from going overseas, but that's through, through teaching people.People generally want to be successful.They want to be good.A lot of times they just don't know how.But everybody laughs, everybody cries, everybody has joy.We all experience those emotions.And that's, that's a big thing for people to learn to know.When you see someone else and you think, oh, that person's of a different culture, well, guess what?When they go to bed at night, they have the same desires, the same wishes that you have.When you lay down your head on the pillow as well, they'll have the same prayers that you have.

That's profound.Actually.I think that's a really nice takeaway that we should all keep in mind and remember and take with us everywhere that we go.We're getting close.We're running a little behind.

Yeah, I'm long winded, I know.

Oh, no, no, so am I.We, we could be dangerous but for a moment, I am a storyteller as well.So let's imagine something we're standing on together on one of your old front porches in your hometown.Your younger self walks up towards us.He hadn't left home yet.He hasn't traveled the world.He hasn't written book.He doesn't know what's waiting for him.What do you hope he never forgets when he gets to us?

Okay, the Donald who's had the experience steps up to the young Donald.First of all, he's going to say, hey, you're going to be an education research analyst with the Department of Defense and you're going to travel the world.Well, the little boy on the porch is going to slap the man in the yard because he's going to say, that's not possible.That's not.That's not going to happen.And the older me will look back at the young boy and he'll say, you just don't realize what is possible in life.Don't let your situation today of this Mill Hill culture, this mill community culture, dictate who you are.Just realize there's a big world out there.That globe you see in.In school and where you picture God's holding the world up.When you picture that, just realize, Donald, you're going to be able to go and experience all these things and you can do it.Just have faith that you have a higher power that's leading you in that direction.You have a family that loves you and supports you and, and you have the talent to go.And I think the little boy would say, okay, I get it.

And look where you're at now.So you, you listen to yourself.Listen to yourself.Let's tell everybody how we can find your book and your music and everything about you, please.

All right.I'm not out there a whole lot on social media because I was told as an early age teacher it's maybe not good to live your life online, but I'm ventured out here in this website.I am Donald Williams.com www.I am Donald Williams.com it's pretty easy to remember there.You'll see the book, the audio version.You can read samples of it, you can hear samples of it, but you also can find the pages that have some of my music.I've written maybe 75 songs.I have maybe 15 or so on there.And these are real stories of things that really happened to me and things that were meaningful to me.A lot of them just connect me to my family that are real stories.But I Invite people that.If you want to know more about me or if you want to make contact with me, there's definitely email links in there.I would love to interact with anyone who may have a question for me or would like to talk.Please drop me an email and I'll definitely answer that email.But I am donaldwilliams.com I'll make sure.

That's in the show notes as well, so people can just click it and find you.For those individuals who are driving or.Or to pay attention to the road, don't pay attention to trying to write this down.I'll get it covered.This is one more thing before you go.So before you go, I'd like to leave our audience with something they carry long after this conversation ends.So if heritage, belonging, and identity could fit into a single sentence, what sentence would you want someone to remember?

Don't let your family hold you back.I know that sounds.That's not exactly what I normally say.I normally say don't let your.Your family situation or don't let where you're born dictate where you end up, but don't let those concepts of family hold you back.Now, my family loved me, supported me, made a way for me to go to college, but they also wanted me to stay there.Be yourself.Follow your dreams.

Amazing rules.Brilliant words of wisdom.Thank you very much for being here.Thank you very much for sharing your story and for reminding us of.Sometimes the farther you travel, the more clearly we understand where we began.And it's been a privilege having you with us.

It's been my joy.Absolutely.What a wonderful conversation we've had.

We will.We should do it again.You're coming out with another book, right?

Yes, sir.I'm looking at it.If we speak,.

You'll have to come back on when you get it.When you get it done.

Okay, I definitely will.

Well, again.Again, thank you very much.I really appreciate you.

Thank you, sir.

As I listened to Donald today, I kept thinking about how often we spend our lives searching for who we are, only to discover that the answer has been quietly waiting in the places that first loved us.Heritage isn't about living in the past.It's about recognizing the invisible threads that connect our past, our present, and the person we're still becoming.Maybe that's what really home really is.Not simple as a place to leave, but a story we can never stop carrying.So that's a wrap for today's episode.I hope this conversation encouraged you to look at your own story a little differently and Would you do me a favor?Please share this episode with someone who needs to hear it.If you're enjoying this conversation, be sure to subscribe.Wherever you listen to podcasts, watch the full video version on YouTube.Please like subscribe and give me a review.It helps me grow as well.So until next time, stay present, stay curious, and keep discovering the stories that shape your life.I'm Michael Herst.This is One More Thing before you go.

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