Why Do Some Shows Make Us Love History: Adventurous Filmmaking

Michael Herst00:00:00

Hey, one More Thing before you go. What does it take to turn Untold Stories into captivating journeys that mesmerize audiences around the world?How does adventurous filmmaking blend history, innovation, and a touch of mystery to leave a lasting impact on viewers? That's what we all want to do. Today.We're exploring these questions and many more with an extraordinary guest who has mastered the art of storytelling in non fiction television and is moving into historical fiction. I'm your host, Michael Hurst. Welcome to One More Thing before you go, I have the privilege of introducing Neil Laird.He's an Emmy nominated producer, director, documentary filmmaker, novelist, and a creative visionary. Neil's career spans over 1,000 hours of programming. Many of these, I'm sure, that you have seen.He's an Emmy nominated director of historical films for Discovery, BBC, PBS History, National Geographic, and many other networks. Too many to list. Many of his shows feature pickled Pharaoh. This is a quote off of your site.Pickled pharaohs, creepy secret passageways and lost ruins and molding rainforest. His need for adventure and historical unfolding has taken him over 70 countries in the heart of some of the world's most intriguing stories.Beyond his groundbreaking work in nonfiction television, Neal's also a novelist blending humor, history, and fantasy to create an unforgettable narrative. We'll talk about that. As an LGBTQIA creator, Neil offers unique perspectives on representation in media and the power of diverse storytelling.Throughout this episode, we'll unravel the secrets behind adventurous filmmaking, explore the challenges and triumphs of crafting nonfiction stories, and uncover the impact of balancing education and entertainment. So whether you're a creative professional, historic enthusiast, or you're simply someone looking to be inspired, stick around.This conversation promises to be a journey all of its own. Welcome to the show, Neil.

Neil Laird00:02:05

Welcome. Thanks for having me. I'm very impressed by the introduction. The fact that you used all those words so succinctly and wisely, that was.

Michael Herst00:02:12

That was a mouthful.

Neil Laird00:02:15

You did it well.

Michael Herst00:02:16

Thank you. Thank you very much. What an amazing journey that your life has taken. I mean, it is. It's hard to really put into words the.The contribution that you made to society, especially in the world of nonfiction television programming and filmmaking and history and educating people and motivating people and inspiring people is just. It's just amazing.

Neil Laird00:02:43

Well, thank you. Thank you.I mean, I certainly enjoy it and it's always been a passion of mine, so it's so fantastic to hear and people are getting something out of it.

Michael Herst00:02:51

You know, I think we. We in this life, we have two choices we can participate or we can sit back and watch. And I think hopefully that you. We have a nice balance of both.But you have absolutely contributed to society and culture in such a way that. That's just a privilege to have you here, buddy. So I do like to start at the origin story. Where'd you grow up?

Neil Laird00:03:14

I grew up in a small town in Pennsylvania outside of Pittsburgh, so a town called Greensburg, which I'm sure is not on any cultural map. But I always knew that I wasn't going to hang around there because I was enamored of cinema my entire life. Movies.I always thought I would do theatrical movies. You know, I grew up watching all the great classics. I loved myself a good epic. Lawrence Arabia, the Good the Bad and the Ugly or Seven Samurai.Anything was escapism out of Western Pennsylvania. So I think that's what kind of put me on my journey is just basically get to where all that stuff is happening.

Michael Herst00:03:48

You know, we. We have a lot in common in regard. I wasn't born in Pittsburgh, but we were born in the same month, though, so we have that brotherhood.But my father and eons of my family are from Pittsburgh and Allegheny county and all, you know, that whole area, actually. So, you know, we. We have something in common there, along with the movies.

Neil Laird00:04:09

We have more than in common with Western Pennsylvania. We have all this going on too.

Michael Herst00:04:13

Yeah.

Neil Laird00:04:13

I think you would have been enthusiastic if we didn't already share the same love of storytelling and. And being transported. I hope it's worth the conversation. Why not?

Michael Herst00:04:23

Yes, it's. I. It takes you. It. It lets you escape. It lets you escape into a different world. And you can enjoy it in such a way that you're sitting in your.Sitting in a theater and you're encompassed by what's going on around you. You can visit faraway places, you can participate in action. You can get the bad guy. You can be the bad guy. I was never the bad guy part.I was always the other side. But yeah, it's amazing. I love filmmaking and documentary producing and so forth, which you've done a lot of.You produced and directed over a thousand. Or push and. Or directed over a thousand hours of programming and traveled more than 70 countries.Was there any specific moment that made you realize storytelling was like your. Your calling? I mean, did you go to college, go to university?

Neil Laird00:05:11

Yeah, I've always been. I've always been fascinated with stories, I think. I mean, I love history and I love science, but I don't have the sign or history mind.You know, I can Barely speak English that on other languages and I have no mathematical understanding and stuff. So I was always gravitated towards stories as a way to kind of get information out.And I always tell the story about when I was a young kid and when the penny dropped and when I realized the magic of movie making. And I wish I could say it was homeless films I mentioned earlier, like David Dean or, or Kurosawa.But I was a young kid and my parents took me to see the Poseidon Adventure when I was 5 or 6 years old in the early 70s. And I remember a big crowded theater in Pittsburgh. We came out and I lost my parents after the show. But I was so dazzled by what I saw.These people dying, a ship capsizing, these people trying to get out and dying along the way that my, you know, my body was still shaking from this experience I just had.But what I remember most about the evening was walking out into the lobby looking for my parents and instead finding this one sheet poster, the big poster of the movie which was a silhouette of the upside capsized ship. And then like, I think it was some ridiculous title, like Hell Upside down or whatever it was.And then down below, and this is where it gets interesting, I saw little squares of all the actors who were in it. Gene Hackman and Leslie Nielsen and Shelley Winters as xxx. And then below that I saw directed by, written by, produced by.And I realized that I had been duped. Even as a six or seven year old kid, I realized that someone did this to me. Someone made me feel this way.Someone, some magic wizard somewhere, a cobble of wizards got together and created this world and made me feel this way. It made me cry when Shelly Winters drowns and all this stuff that, that, that was a movie is supposed to do that. I was enamored of cinema ever since.I was fascinated by the magic and the alchemy the cinema can give you. And why, I wish I could say it was like, you know, some obscure Antonioni movie or Bergman movie or something. Makes sense.Was a Poseidon Adventure was a big epic that would appeal to a six year old kid. And I've been chasing that excitement ever since, all my life. I want to. Who was who, who were the people at the bottom of the poster?

Michael Herst00:07:35

That's very cool. What, I mean that. Especially at that age. I mean, I understand that very much. So I, I remember those old movies so, so well.The Creature from the Black Lagoon was one of my first core movies that I think I had ever seen as a, as a child. I grew up watching Tony Curtis in everything. From, from everything, actually. The great race.I mean, you, you, anything he was in, you name it, I was there. I got to meet Tony Curtis. I had him at a conference that I put on in Las Vegas. We honored him at the Las Vegas Screenwriters Conference one year.And we brought out Tony Curtis and talking about fanboy. It was one of those. Yeah, it was like I grew up watching him. I grew up enamored by him.And he walked up and gave me a big hug and then said, buy me a drink. And I could barely talk.

Neil Laird00:08:32

I can well imagine that's what he would say. Yes. And what else did he do? The Vikings and stuff? You know, I love all that stuff. He was so much fun in those things.

Michael Herst00:08:42

Oh, just very. It's very, very cool. So it's. Is. I love this world.I'm glad that you have that to participate in as much as you have your career is taking this, this career in particular. Oh, I'm sorry, let me back up. Did you go to, did you go to university? Did you.

Neil Laird00:08:57

So all growing up in small town pa, I thought I would, you know, become a filmmaker. I've always wanted to. And, you know, I took a small filmmaking class for high school students in Pittsburgh.I went to film school at Temple University in Philadelphia. The RTF program. Radio, TV, film. Then I remember I graduated in the late 80s and.And, you know, because I had a bachelor's of the art that I thought that I would become Martin Scorsese overnight. So I took that Amtrak up to New York just waiting for the call to happen. It didn't happen.You know, I was a poor schlub holding a walkie talkie on like toxic Avenger part 12 or whatever rubbish it was in the, in the bows of Queens at 2 in the morning making sure they didn't steal the grip truck. That was my job. I mean, the lowest possible rung underneath the barrel. And I was happy to get that for 50 bucks a day or whatever it was in 1988.But clearly I became disillusioned after a while because it's a long way from that to Martin Scorsese. So I remember waiting weeks before the phone, the call, whatever, for the next potential crap job.And it was New York City, expensive, and was the summertime. I had nowhere else to be and no money to be there. So I started hanging out the New York Public Library because it was free and air conditioned.And one day I plucked the book off the shelf and I don't know why I plucked it Off. But it was a book about Neolithic man. It's about the rise of. Of cavemen, about the rise of civilization.Something I never got in my Catholic school in Greensburg, Pennsylvania. And again, I was hooked. I had no idea this world of history existed simply because I was. Wasn't reading it.And I became so fascinated by the rise of civilization and having so much bloody time on my hands that I resolved to teach myself history through the New York Public Library for free. While I waited the phone not to ring, and I read book after book. And I became voracious in reading these books.I remember taking them home to a friend, said, you're not going to read all those books. 12 books on ancient Egypt. You're joking. I read them all, went back for more.And when I got to the ancient world, particularly Egypt, Mesopotamia, up until maybe Greco Roman time, I got stuck. I became so fascinated by these early cultures and what they did and how they did it, that all I wanted to do was see that world.I wanted to walk in the shadow of the pyramids. I wanted to walk in front of the Acropolis. I wanted to see all these things. So I did that.I kind of raised enough money from whatever nonsense job I was doing, and I backpacked to the Middle east for eight or nine months. Jordan, Syria, Turkey, Iran, Egypt, which is my happy place. Israel. I say Turkey, I can't remember. And I came back with the head in the clouds.My head was in the clouds. This was my world. I wanted to get back there. But I can't afford to keep going on my own dime. So how the hell can I get someone to pay me to go back?So I went back to film school in Columbia College, Chicago, for my MFA in documentary production with the idea to do historical filmmaking. And that's what I did.I, through a friend of mine who lived in Egypt, I was able to tag along on the people who were restoring the Great Sphinx of Egypt. All the stone masons who lived in East Cairo, they didn't speak English. I didn't speak Arabic. But we got on fine.And I used school equipment and my thesis film was called Saving the Sphinx. And I sold it to the learning channel in 1997, and I've been doing that ever since.

Michael Herst00:12:15

You know what, what an amazing opportunity to walk through history and touch history and to kind of, you know, be there. It's different when you watch. Watch it on TV or see it in the movies or you. You see what they've built sometimes and you.You think you're seeing what it is. But in reality it's not. But what an amazing feeling to touch history that, oh, it's fantastic.

Neil Laird00:12:38

And, and it's, you know, they always say you can't step at the same river twice. And it's true in terms of going back and seeing the pyramids or Petra or whatever else they were. But you can still get that buzz.You can still get the buzz.And I go back to Egypt free back to Egypt four or five dozen times or something, and I still get a buzzwoman Carnac when I'm, when I'm seeing the pyramids. There's something about those ancient distant cultures that has shaped my life in such a profound way that it was a before and after.I mean, it got me out of narrative and I went into documentary. Narrative is far more lucrative. Martin Scorsese makes far more than executive producer Discovery Channel, I can tell you.That is where my passion and my drive went.And to get back there and to see these cultures, to stand there, you know, it doesn't have to be, didn't have to be the ancient world, it can just be. I was just in Paris last weekend and you know, just looking at the Eiffel Tower again and saying, my God, when we get it together, humans can be.

Michael Herst00:13:40

Yeah, it's, you know, it's, it, it.If you, if you look at the history that you walk through, the history that you touch, whether where, whether it be Egypt or whether it be the architecture in France, the architecture in Paris, the architecture in southern France or northern France, or the castles in England or Ireland or Scotland, and you see what the lives that were lost, the lives that were built, the empires that were lost, everything that involved those places is different here because here in the United States, as you know, they'll walk in, they'll wipe something off the map, rebuild something, and you never knew it was there.

Neil Laird00:14:22

If you see a story, I live in Brooklyn, you know, people put with pride up in their window here since 1968. And that's ancient history.

Michael Herst00:14:31

Exactly, exactly.

Neil Laird00:14:33

If it was BC it would be something. But it's 1968 AD. Yeah, that's the other thing.It's not to me, it's not just seeing the stones and the pillars, it's how I find myself in the cultures, the modern day cultures as well. So I'm not living among the dead.When you're in Turkey, when you're in Greece, when you're in Egypt, when you're in Israel, whatever you are, have to talk to the people who are there. And the little kid from Pittsburgh comes out and then the gruff guy from New York comes out.But the respect for the culture that's there and trying to understand, understand who they are and connecting is something that keeps it always fresh.Because all these places are, they're not museums, they are living places where people have been living, moving around for the thousands of years since Karnak fell. So yes, it's the people there, but it's the people and the experiences and how they treat the culture and it keeps me going back.And that of course, is the stuff that I focus on in my films.

Michael Herst00:15:34

Yeah. Do you find, do you, do you find and feel that those cultures and those societies really have more of a respect for the, for the ancient.More respect for their ancestors from that area and what they've built and what they've got?

Neil Laird00:15:47

Well, I think it's a very, I mean being American is, has a.Yeah, we have such a stunted growth in terms of our history, as we said, because we're a young country that makes us upstart, arrogant and you know, feel like we still got the bravado that some of these world weary countries of the ancient near east or China or do not. But what they have is they have that understanding that culture is cyclical and that it doesn't always go up.Culture goes in a circle and they're bound to their ancestors in a way that is not just we're better than the people. Both the pyramids, they're part of it. So, you know, you talk to people are the same everywhere.You can talk to One guy in Egypt 20 sees the pyramids and Egyptian who sees them as a way to make money and sell you cheap papyrus as you get off your tour bus. And somebody else looks at them with such great pride because these are the people that we are still standing on the shoulders of all these years.There's different ways to connect with your past as we do here too.The way we treat our founding fathers or the civil war, it's the same sort of concept, I think that the Egyptians or other ancient cultures do as well.And then of course, you know, when you go to places like Iraq or Iran, which have, you know, seen a lot of war and people that have lost so much of their culture, you can tell it's tragic to them. Not because they've lost some sort of cash cow of ancient Babylon, it's because some piece of them is gone that will never come back.

Michael Herst00:17:09

Yeah, that's unfortunate.I remember a few years ago when so many things were being destroyed by some of the, the groups out there that they were literally blasting them off of the face of the rocks. And, you know, it was very sad, very heartbreaking when that was taking place. Just based on where it had come from.In your career that has taken over 70 countries, can you tell us about, like a location experience? I mean, other. I mean, I think you just did, but something that, with an experience that kind of left you or had a profound impact on you.Other, like, I know, say, Egypt sound like it might have been it, but is there something or some place that left such an impact in your Pompeii, for example, or, you know, something that really left something indelible in you that.

Neil Laird00:17:58

Kind of went, wow, this is a happy place. But, you know, Pompeii is also a favorite of mine. My last book was written in Pompeii. And Pompeii is an inkwell you can keep dipping into.Because anyone who's listening to this has been to Pompeii knows that unlike most other ancient sites, you don't have to imagine too much what it was like. You are walking down the streets of Pompeii and you are seeing.You are seeing fast food joints and brothels and graffiti and political art, and you go into rooms and you see where they ate and dined and made love and slept, and it brings them so much closer together. So when people always ask me, where should I travel first? Is impossible to say.But I do think Pompeii is a great starter city merely because it doesn't require some of the imagination that some of these denuded cultures are, where it's just a pillar in the sand dune. Pompeii still feels like it's this close to being alive.So I think in terms of sweeping someone off their feet, Pompeii is the perfect starting point. Yeah.

Michael Herst00:19:03

Yeah. It's interesting. I know that you wrote the book about that and we'll talk about that in here a few minutes. But the. Have you seen the.Some of the artificial intelligence recreations of what life was like in those. Like in Pompeii or in Greece or in some of these other places that were destroyed?

Neil Laird00:19:22

I have, because when I was promoting my Pompeii book last fall, I did a lot of AI stuff. I did stuff on. On, you know, Tick Tock and elsewhere and was looking at a lot of how people kind of recreated that. Some of these are coming from.From university sites and some came from elsewhere. But there's so much to see and reimagine and of course, Pompeii that you know, is so dramatic.What's fascinating is when I was doing a mock up for my, my book cover for Primetime Pompeii, I was trying to do some videos of my time crew as a time traveling time crew and put them into ancient Pompeii as Vesuvius was erupting.And what's interesting is that AI wouldn't let me really using it because in the algorithm of AI, they see Pompeii, rightly so, as a disaster, as a thing that should not be in any way celebrated or anyway turned into, into entertainment because it's no different than an explosion somewhere. So it's fascinating how all those things are kind of set in terms of what it is. But, you know, Pompeii is one of those great things too.When you look at those plaster cast is. And everybody knows, hopefully, but the plaster cast where people were frozen in the moment when the pyroclastic flow hit them.And that's how they are found today all over Pompeii, in museums and nearby Naples and stuff. But I love how people look at them and they try to suss out who these people's lives are.They say that this is a fleeing couple or this is a man who was a merchant. And yet that means everybody is judged by that one second when they're frozen. It's the very end. And that is their moniker for all time.It's impossible for us to look at any bones, any mummy, any plastic cast, and assume what the life they live, what the experiences were, what the world they it unfolded in.

Michael Herst00:21:09

You know, I think it's just, I think us society in general, I think, want to understand a little bit more.I think creating those narratives around that and what it might have been or what they should have been, what they, what they look like they could have been doing, gives it more of a personal perspective in regard to the fact that they die so quickly in such a horrific manner that it allows, I think, our minds to kind of give a better understanding of. Well, yes, this was a person, this was an individual that was functioning within the city and contributing to something.I find it the reason I ask you that question about Pompeii in particular, because the book, I'm assuming that a lot of that gave you the inspiration for writing. I know that you've got two. Again, we'll differentiate those here in a little bit.But the one in Pompeii in particular, because I've always had a fascination with Pompeii, so was my wife, in regard to that whole aspect of what happened and what took place and how they found it. And they're still finding, they're still digging stuff.

Neil Laird00:22:13

Only what I think one third is still unexcavated in Pompeii.

Michael Herst00:22:17

Yeah, it's crazy how much they're still doing. And then when you recreate, when they start chipping away at everything, you see streets and you see houses and you see businesses and you see life.Life. Yeah, it's pretty cool.Like we said, when you're crafting non fiction stories about history or science, how do you strike a balance between like, accuracy and creating something that keeps audiences glued?Because when we first had a conversation right before we started this, we were talking about the differences between, you know, like how like Josh Gates, for example. I love Josh Gates, what he does, how he presents history to us, how he teaches us about history.But how do you think we craft non fiction stories in history to kind of strike that balance between actual and.

Neil Laird00:23:08

It's a good question. And it's a tricky thing because no story is right.You know, you have to realize that the way Josh Gates and I tell our stories, and I work with Josh Gates in a few series, other people like him and they're wonderful because they really love the history and how they talk about it. But that's one way of recreating history.You can, you can go total, you know, Assassin's Creed and kind of create a total fantastic, violent world, or you can do a much more scholarly way of how Pompeii or the Egyptians, the pyramid, ever. None of those are wrong. It in my world. And, and I make TV documentaries for the masses.You know, the shows I make are not meant to be the, the definitive answer to any one historical time period. They're entertainment with a lot of history in them.And I know a lot of my Egyptology and archaeology friends kind of roll their eyes saying, oh, you're just sort of dumbing it down for the masses. Well, conversely, a lot of other people look at it and say, well, you know, it's like if you get so dry and so boring, you lose me.If you don't have a narrative, I don't care about facts and figures and dates. So everybody comes at history a different way. I think the reason why so many of the shows I've done have had long legs and are so sort of evergreen.And I started to invent the genre.I just joined it late in the game is because they tell stories and they open it up so people could understand what they need to without getting inundated.But the one thing I do not like to do, and I'm fortunate to have done very, very few of these, is the paranormal stories or the ones where they claim that the pyramids were built by aliens or some of these revisionist history, as they call, which is just bs.And I understand why people want to believe in a conspiracy and they want to believe that, that, you know, levitation created this, or giants created Agamemnon's Gate or whatever, but it's just nonsense. There's a reason that we call them pyramidiots in our television. A lot of them will watch the shows.And I don't mean to badmouth people who don't want to believe in the archaeologists who often get it wrong, but you have to respect these people are passionate at what they do. And they have devoted their lives and generation for generations of trying to bring all this culture back.So finding that balance that appeals to both. It's not always easy. Invariably someone's going to feel it's too heavy or it's too light.I like to think we try to find that soft spot where we tell a story. We make it engaging, but allow you to go off if you're curious about the Roman Empire and Google it and find out more on your own.

Michael Herst00:25:43

I think that's profound, the way that you have put that we all.I learned this even not only in my own academic career, but I learned it as a cop, specifically and especially taking statements from people who were witnesses to something. Everybody has a different perspective and everybody takes certain information in where others don't take it in.So I think filling those gaps where somebody's more visual or somebody's more audible and somebody understands something from a different level or perspective and creating an environment that will educate us and hopefully motivate us and inspire us. I think it's a better way to go because it gives something that everybody can walk away with, at least something.

Neil Laird00:26:26

As I said before, we're talking. It's a gateway drug. Give him a gateway drug.I can't be, you know, if you're curious about Vikings, I can do a show about Vikings, but it better not end with what Neil Laird created.Go out and Explore Books about 9th century England and Scandinavia and go down those rabbit holes like I did when I was in New York Public Library 30 years ago. That person, if I stopped at one book, I wouldn't have this curiosity, this insatiable appetite. Feed that. Feed that passion.

Michael Herst00:26:53

Yeah, I guess. Important. I think it's important as well.Look, I know that you've through Some of your stuff like Mysteries of the Abandoned and Through the Wormhole, which I've watched both of those, by the way. What was your biggest creative challenge, considering what we just spoke about?What would be your most creative challenge that you faced while working on those kind of shows?

Neil Laird00:27:14

Funny. Have many. And I'm working right now on a, you know, show, History's Greatest Mysteries.And every script is a challenge because you never know how to kind of shape it. So every show you work on has its own parameters.I think one of the most challenging and one of the most rewarding I probably did was it wasn't a history show, it was a science show, but a very popular one, you might remember, called Brain Games.

Michael Herst00:27:34

Yes.

Neil Laird00:27:34

A National Geographic. And I did the first three episodes.And I remember with one of those passion projects, the guy who was ahead of Head of Nat Geo at the time, and he wanted to do a show on brain psychology about how we see and how we hear. We thought, oh, my God, this is death. This is the most boring doll dry thing in the world. There's no way we're going to bring to life.In fact, I remember even when they. When they greenlit it, they green the three episodes and they say, we'll dump it all in one night because no one's going to watch.But then we started getting together and talking about how we can make sight and sound and vision, all the kind of things we talk about. Brain games. Each one was kind of like playing games on how we see the world. One was attention, one was memory.And there were so many fun tricks to play on our brain.There were so many ways to kind of make it dramatic or the episode on Attention we shot all in Las Vegas, and we got a magician to host it, and we got David Copperfield to appear in it, and, you know, Neil Patrick Harris narrated it with a kind of sense of fun. So we make something that sounds sort of dry and dull, essential and fun and play along. And the show was a ratings bonanza.It went through the roof on National Geographic so much they made a series out of it, which I wasn't involved in, that ran for like three or four years or whatever. But it was such a joy because none of us thought. We thought we were all working on something sort of in secret. We were really proud of it.We thought 12 people would watch it and it would disappear, but at least we could show it to friends, you know, on holidays or whatever. And here becomes a sort of like, touchstone. That was Geographic's biggest show for years. And those Are the things.You never know what they're going to hit and hide. And because filmmaking is never just me. When you say, Neil, there's been these countries. I have a crew. Sometimes the crew goes out.If I go out, I have a camera person and a sound person and a fixer and a local person. It is so much done by committee. It is so much done by people grouping together. Unlike writing a novel. Writing is a different beast.But filmmaking has to be collaborative, and that's when you never know what sparks are going to fly until you start talking about it.

Michael Herst00:29:45

Yeah. And I think that the difference between.I mean, there's a difference between television, making television, whether it be sitcoms or any other reality show or sitcom or. Or a drama or a comedy, whatever you see, making a film, documentary film or a historic.Let me regroup here for a second because I have, like, three questions running through my head and I'm trying to catch up to them. So do you see. Is there a major difference?Because do you consider documentary filmmaking similar to creating something like Exhibition X or something like one of the National Geographic programs that we see or the movies or the archaeological.The Egyptian one, the King Tut, the show that we've watched or I've watched about King Tut and where they had come from and the new findings and opening. Or do they overlap? Because most of us think of a documentary film as something that's kind of dry and.And, you know, and this is no offense meant in regards to anybody make a documentary film, because I. I did it myself.

Neil Laird00:31:02

Yeah. Are you. I mean, what are you asking? Like. I mean, I make a very slow liver of the pie of these kind of shows because.Because I feel, in fact, even in television, what I make is called factual. When I'm a geographic or history or whatever national. We.We work in the factual department because there's also documentaries that are, you know, Love island or game shows or. Or the reality shows on TLC where it's a bunch of ladies with long nails yelling at one another. That's not my bailiwick.But those are documentaries, too. And I. And I. And I applaud people who could do those. It's just, I don't, you know, they don't come natural to me.So documentary is very much a generic term for all manner of storytelling. Nonfiction. And of course, nonfiction is even sort of a misnomer because many of the shows, you wouldn't be surprised, or heavily scripted.You have to.Even now, when I go out in the field again, I'm working on A show now where we pre script it and we go out in the field, we let things happen, but we know when you have four or five days in the field. So it's not like we can sit there and wait for reality to just happen.We have to get it all done, get the interviews done, get the B roll done, get the action done, and then get home and cut it because it airs in July, that kind of thing. So. But then my very. My very first thing that I worked on as associate producer back in the early 90s was a film called Hoop Dreams.I don't know if you remember this film. It was nominated for an Oscar, and it was these two wonderful filmmakers, three wonderful filmmakers followed two black kids in the ghettos of.Of Chicago for seven years, and it was all about, would they get out of Chicago and get the NBA?

Michael Herst00:32:43

Yes. Yes, I do remember.

Neil Laird00:32:45

Yeah. Yeah. And it was. It was a wonderful documentary. And it was a documentary where it had 350 hours and things just happened.They had no idea where they were going. They would go in the homes of these people and they would sit with them and they would let life play out. And they had very little low narration.It was a verite, they would call it, in my film school days, sort of untouched reality. That's a very different documentary than what I have done. And it's a wonderful documentary, yet it's always.So it really is a question of how you want to tell that story and what the stories you want to tell. Because I do historical and factual, they're heavily narrated. There's less action going on and more information going on.So each one has its own format that you have to follow.

Michael Herst00:33:34

As an LGBTQIA creator, do you think part of your personality or perspective shaped those kind of stories that you're telling? And. And in such a way that it has a wider impact across the world?

Neil Laird00:33:50

I'm not sure in television, I wouldn't say no. And that can kind of lead to why I wrote the books, but it's not that. The business I work in, like, I, you know, I.My homes are New York, London, and la. Very liberal cities. Very, very embracing cities for the LGBTQ community.And a lot of the people I work with either gay or certainly there's very little homophobia in my world. And yet, you know, and we make films for the masses, and a lot of these communities that we make them for may not want to kind of hear those stories.We don't censor them, but we never denigrate them.But what I do find, and It's a little disappointing, I find with the networks is they don't embrace them either because it's all about numbers and ratings. So people want to expressly go out and tell a story about gay people of the ancient world because again, the numbers won't be strong enough.You know, I try to bring them into my films, but it's not a natural way. Sometimes I naturally, I'm writing again. I wrote a script last week about Alexander the Great.So I made sure to mention especially and his, his, his gay lover, his male lover in the script. And that will get in there as sort of a sidebar. But to do films about gay people. Yeah, I think national American TV is really not the place for it.

Michael Herst00:35:05

Unfortunately, there's not for it. Yeah, I know that.I mean, you look in, in actual history, you see, you see an integration and you see where there are male, male, male, female, female and crossovers throughout history. You can read it and see it.And unfortunately, I think that the atmosphere, especially unfortunately backtracking here now is just not ready for it in such a way.

Neil Laird00:35:34

You thought we were. You know, I've been married to my husband for 25 years and you know, you feel the pendulum swinging back in a big ugly way.But again, also too, it's like, I think you bring it back to the personal experiences and my own experience of coming out as a gay man or just traveling as a gay person. I remember seeing places around the world. Pompeii, it's a great example, Egypt another where you see gay tombs.There's a great tomb in Egypt called the Tomb of the Brothers near Saqqara, the Step Pyramid. And it's always been called the Tomb of the Brothers as they excavated and refound it in 1964.But it clearly is a gay couple and they called the Brothers because of homophobia that existed in 1964.That clearly didn't exist in Old Kingdom Egypt because here are people that were sanctioned to be buried near the pharaoh and this is this loving couple that went to eternity together. And they, I walk in there and just see this stuff and say, oh, you know, we are cyclical. We are not necessarily getting better.In many cases, people were much open for same sex or other sex unions than they are now. This is my second book again to bring it back to Pompeii. One of the inspirations for is those plaster casts.Well, there's a very famous plaster cast where you walk into the amphitheater gate, the main gate, and they have them rather kind of rudely stuffed in Next to the gift shop, all these dead people that, I mean, mostly they're just cement and they're hollowed out bodies, but there's one of two people in embrace and one is holding the other's chest very tight. And it was found in like 1790 or whatever, a long time ago.But they've always called it the two maidens, I think it was, or the mother and her daughter. And they assumed that it was a mother and daughter that got caught during the pyroclastic flood and killed.And that's how it's displayed at the gift shop since eternity. But they did CAT scans and DNA testing four or five years ago and realize not only were they both male, but they also were not related.And they probably between 30 and 20 and 30 years old.Now, we can make an assumption from that that they were same sex lovers, but I look at these two people holding each other tight as the end comes, and it's really hard to imagine doing that with a random shopkeeper or the tanner down the road or whatever. These were two people who loved one another and went out as close as they could.Now, I don't know all the details, we never will know, but clearly we know that homosexuality is accepted in ancient Rome because you see it all in the brothels and elsewhere. So why wouldn't a big gay couple getting caught in the in the flow like anybody else. And that was kind of like the inspiration for my last book.My TV time traveling crew goes back to find out the identity of these two men.

Michael Herst00:38:24

I find that from a DNA perspective, I find that really unique that they were able to go back and find that out in regard, especially as long ago as that was and being able to get DNA from that.

Neil Laird00:38:35

Yeah, I know some, some deep in the bone is by that point, it's never guaranteed. I think because of them was flash freeze, you know, fast frozen.And I think with bones, they can tell by the hips of a man versus a woman, that kind of thing. And I think there's still only 80% sure one's a man, they know 101 is a man, like 80% the other.But enough for, you know, to believe that it very easily could be the same people. Yeah. But again, it's fascinating. Again, it's like not. Nobody should try to put a definitive answer to anything in history.We have the right to create our own stories. But my books and when I can in my films, I try to, you know, if I can't accentuate lgbtq, I try to at least normalize it.

Michael Herst00:39:18

And I think. I think that's at least it. Look, as part of society, we part as part of humanity, and then it should be. It should be that done that way.So I applaud you for taking that approach.

Neil Laird00:39:30

A caveman. I'm sure, you know, they'll be 10,000 years from now if we're still around. There will be a gay ex or whatever. So.But again, I'm not driven by sexuality too. It's like, you know, I'm a man in my 50s and very comfortable with. With. With. With who I am. And when I came out, my stories kind of go deeper.I just want to normalize everybody as much as I can. So that's why I started writing fiction, to tell the stories I could really make up for the first time that I couldn't.Because you ask what it's like to make a Nat Geo show, whatever, everything is a footnote, which is great because that's the way it should be. You like to think when you down and plop in and watch a Josh Gates, then they're not feeding you a bunch of bs. They're not. Because they.Every line is footnoted and made sure. Now people can make.You know, you watch the Ancient Aliens or some of those more dopey shows, they will qualify by saying some argue or it has been contended. Or there are those. That's a network distinct themselves from a lawsuit.

Michael Herst00:40:23

Yeah. Disclaimer. Instead of saying disclaimer every statement. Disclaimer here. That's funny. How did. Let me ask you this from.From a filmmaker perspective, because again, as I told you, I went back to school, I learned filmmaking and I learned documentary filmmaking in particular. I chose that. That portion of it for myself. But I do not. I do no filmmaking. And my first film I ever made was 16 millimeter.And it wasn't digital camera back then because I'm an old guy back then.

Neil Laird00:40:56

You know, I'm sorry, I'm no spring chicken. I remember those days too.

Michael Herst00:41:02

Yes. So it. It is. I mean, because we had your 16 millimeter. It was independent film. We shot the 16 millimeter.16 millimeter then had to be ranked down to beta. Beta. You know, we had to take it in to get it edited through a. Had to pay to have somebody else do it.They had all this huge equipment to have to put it down on, you know, via a tape or DVD kind of a thing and then play with it. Whereas now you see a difference between editing where, like this show, I have Final Cut Pro, I have Adobe, I've got DaVinci Resolve.I've got all these aspects that I can take this program, I put it into my desktop here and then I can edit everything I need to do. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. I come up with a show. Do you think from a documentary perspective I'll come to filmmaker perspective?Has that been an advantage to you to have to have this at your fingertips? More so than what it was like in the old days?

Neil Laird00:42:00

It's on your vantage point, doesn't it? I mean, I am part of the last of my generation that had an entire career out of network cable tv. Cable TV is dead.They don't need executive producers, which I was for Science channel for 12 years, because a lot less production is made. People aren't watching those kind of shows.Streaming is taking over, or so a lot of people are getting out of the business merely because far less shows are being made. And it's not just streaming. You know, think about it now.Netflix might make four or five Mysteries of the Abandoned or what on Earth, as opposed to us back in the day that had four or five nights on History Channel or Science Channel, that product. So there's less people in the field, less people making it, and it's being replaced by people who can do it on their own.So as an economic standpoint, for those of us in the business, it's a terrible thing what's happening, happening.But yet in terms of democratization of storytelling, in terms of everybody has a right to tell their story and get out there through YouTube or anything else, or tick tock, it's brilliant because it's an equalizer. It's a great equalizer.There's no reason why 12 year old girl in Ohio doesn't have a story that's just as valuable as some Multiple Emmy and BBC nominated or BAFTA nominated guy who's been doing it, you know, since 1962, everybody has the right. I mean, some are probably better than others. But I miss fascinating now where the fragmentation has splintered so much.There's just so many different ways to go in terms of storytelling. 30 seconds. You know, if I get my nieces or younger people to, they would never watch one of my hour long shows.They want to see it in 10 minutes and they're done. Simply the model we have right now. And it's neither right nor wrong. Just like TV Eclipse movies and movies Eclipse plays and whatever else it was.This is where we are.So it's fascinating to kind of watch an industry of mine in many ways collapse, which in many ways I think it is My father worked in a steel plant in Latrobe, Pennsylvania until he retired in the late 90s. And he retired by turning off the lights of the steel plant and letting everybody go.You know, the steel industry died, as you remember, in the 90s, 90s in the States. And in a way I feel it's kind of tantamount on what's happening to my business in terms of these shows. Science Channel went away.I lost my job at Science Channel because the network closed. I'm working with the BBC right now on something and they need money from four or five other funders.They used to be able to plop down a million dollars now, now you need to co finance around the world. It's very rare that someone costs up the dough for that kind of stuff.At least in my little slice of pie they'll still make $4 million for a game show, whatever. But a lot more people watch this so there are less places to shop the stuff.A lot of my friends that are Egypt freaks or history freaks or whatever, they just can't shop those shows anymore because no one's buying.

Michael Herst00:44:48

Yeah, and I, I think that's sad if I do.I honestly think that's sad from that perspective because it doesn't allow for that diversity that's needed in order for us to get a, a more rounded perspective from different conversations.And when I say different conversations because as we started in the beginning of this show, we all take things in, whether it be audibly, visibly or otherwise or a combination of.We all understand something from our own perspectives and how it's presented to us and taking away the opportunity for us to be able to, to understand it. Because I think it's sad to have.

Neil Laird00:45:29

Lost that because that's the storytelling I love. But I also, I try to be a realist and take the long view.Remember when you're talking about cultures that have been 3,000 years, history and storytelling won't go away. So hopefully whoever are going to be the storytellers of the next generation will still find out about Pompeii.They will still be curious to travel, gone or wherever. It'll just be a different path in a different way than we've done it.So I don't want to decry the fact that because our businesses dies, area died thinking or any kind of deeper thinking goes away. I do think some of it does because if you look at a tick tock video, it's sort of substance free. But those that are curious will find it out.I think they're still there. We have so much information our fingertips right now.If I wanted to check about the DNA, you know, results of that Pompeii thing, I could do while I'm talking to you. So information is there like water. It is there. The question of how we use it and the question of how we turn stories into it.So I try not to be the doomsdayer and say, oh, all the good years are behind us. I just think it's going to be a model you and I may not recognize.

Michael Herst00:46:40

I, I agree with you. I mean, and again, this may be our generation, generations, but reality is everything today is an instant gratification.I wanted to want it now and I want it quickly.

Neil Laird00:46:50

And I think, yeah, it's a very smaller slice.I think that are going to look for that and I don't know what that means in terms of we can see with our leaders and everybody else where, you know, being anti intellectual is cool and, and, and not understanding things is a badge of honor. We won't go down that, you know, ugly, nasty road road. But that's what's ruling the roost right now. So in that world it's all the more important.But I just can't imagine, and I don't think I'm being naive, I can't imagine it's going to go away forever because again, the world's been around.You know, we went through the Spanish Inquisition, we went through the Black Plague, and we went through so many other dodgy times in history and we still bounce back whatever horror shows await us here. I don't know, I don't think we're down and out just yet in terms of intellect and creativity.I won't be around, probably neither will you, but someone will suss it out.

Michael Herst00:47:43

Yeah, I would hope so. I would hope so because you know, I'm not complaining about the digital technology age because obviously it allows us to talk across from each other.You being in New York, me being here. And I've had conversations all over the world that I wouldn't have been able to have without this digital opportunity.It gives me the opportunity to have conversations and to create what I want to create, to hopefully inspire and motivate other individuals and to educate them. And I do it because of the forum of the digital age. But it's hard.I think it's hard because even that is changing to a point where, you know, they want, even with my shows, I do, you know, 15 minutes to an hour and people keep saying, why don't we, why don't you do 30 why don't you. 30 minutes to 35 minutes. But sometimes it takes longer than that to tell the story.And I think, do you think that, that that's kind of, do you think that's going to be a problem with, with some of the, like the content that's going out there now, especially in the archaeological aspect or like the Josh Gaetz type shows? I mean he's got like what, four or five now.

Neil Laird00:48:53

So what's your question now you're saying.

Michael Herst00:48:55

Do you think that where everybody is, is they don't want to sit around for an hour like you said earlier?

Neil Laird00:49:01

Oh, I'm sure the attention spans are, you know, like a nat these days. And we know that where people get restless, we all do. And we're sitting here and my husband will say, let's watch a new show, give it 30 seconds.We'll say, no, I don't like it.And you know, I'm a filmmaker and he's a journalist, you know, but the world is always kind of moving around so quick, quickly and there's so much content, it's easy to move on. So I don't, so I do think we are at this, this, this hyped up speed where we don't slow down and accept.I mean, when I was growing up, I'm sure you, we had three or four channels and whatever book mom bought me that the bookstore is the one I read because that's on the table. So less was more in a way. So I, you know, but again, it's, if you're curious, it's there.I don't know what, I don't know what the knock on effect of people with these short attention spans mean in terms of creativity, in terms of storytelling. But you've seen this already where a story often on Instagram, whatever is two minutes long tops. And for some people that's satisfying to me.I get very restless. I love a good hour. I love, you know, what am I reading now? There's a thousand pages. I have no problem diving into, into a mega novel, whatever.And I think that's just the patience of where I grew up. So.

Michael Herst00:50:18

Well, I, I don't want to put a on it.

Neil Laird00:50:21

I, I could, but I'd rather not.

Michael Herst00:50:23

Well, I, I hope, I would hope that audiences, you know, will continue to be captivated by the unknown and ancient mysteries and deep sea explorations and archaeological, new archaeological finds. Because they're still happening. They are still happening.That there's still going to be more than that because I believe that it allows us as human beings to kind of understand that we still have. We all came from somewhere and we all have history and we all should value history and where we came from.We should all understand that what was before us and the shoulders that we stand on are what put us where we're at today. At least that's just my personal opinion.

Neil Laird00:51:06

And hopefully along with that, people will do their own research and not just look at whatever people offer as an easy answer, the alien theory or some sort of magical theory, whatever, and just question that. So don't be afraid to question stuff. I think a lot of people just don't question what's put in front of them and therefore they do not dive into the.Their own sort of research.

Michael Herst00:51:28

I agree with that. How did you as a storyteller transition from, you know, film, film, television and documentary filmmaking? How did you transition from that into.Into writing a novel? Did you always. Has it always been like a little seed planted deep down in your soul that you wanted to be an author or how did that come about?

Neil Laird00:51:49

It wasn't really. I mean, I was happy doing my documentaries and I think it was. Was only I always had the idea.I mean, as I started traveling all these places, I'm looking at again, a denuded landscape, as I said, or a few broken columns. And it's hard to imagine what they're like a thousand years ago. You can't help but wonder what it was like to walk down this, this avenue.The Sphinxes in ancient Egypt, a thousand bc. And the only way you can do that is either through fiction or through. Through, you know, fantasy.So two things happened in 2016 that made me realize I want to write my first novel. And they're. They both seem kind of strange and arbitrary, but it actually kind of helped kind of help me reset my life.One was I turned 6, I turned 50. So, yeah, it was a big thing. And I realized, oh, there's a lot more history behind me than in front of me.And I realized, if I am going to write a novel, I better get off the. The loo and do it. You know, I better go off and get, and get it. And then the same month, the same time period, my great creative idol died.David Bowie. I was a huge Bowie fan and I love, I. I grew up being the first one to buy Bowie and every album that came out. And I love the journey.He would take me out and all that kind of stuff. And when he died and I was reading his obituary, which of course I kind of already knew, I was reminded again. I got A dog.There I was reminded again just how fearless he was and how this guy reinvented himself 28 times with 28 albums.And I remember thinking, well, I'm certainly will never be David Bowie, but if he can reinvent himself and be fearless almost 30 times, I can do it once. So that coupled with becoming 50, said, it's time to kind of try this new way of storytelling. And it was a total.It wasn't like a natural progression. Some things I already had sussed out nicely in terms of cause and effect and signposting and cliffhangers, all the stuff we do in television.But then writing a book and being literary is a very different thing than writing a blueprint for a script. So I had to reteach myself something else. And in a way I was. I had to wean myself off of television and screenwriting.And it took many, many drafts and many, many attempts until I finally found the sweet spot. And I recognized, as they always say, write what you know. So the two loves of my life are TV production and ancient history.So I wanted to combine the two.The best way to do that was to kind of create a kind of cheesy, ancient alien like TV crew that finds a way to travel to the ancient past to win an Emmy. So clearly it's comedic and it's a satire. My day job, but it allows me.In the first book, primetime travelers, they go back to ancient Egypt and they have to travel the 12 gates of the Duat, the underworld, to find a mummy. Or they get stuck in ancient Egypt and they have their camera and their shootings, they got all their gear, and yet they're in the wonderful.I can get into all the mythology of ancient Egypt and yet have a wise, cracking camera woman from the Bronx, you know, and it was fun. I found my voice and I was able to transition from history back into comedy to satire of television. I made sure the two gay.The two lead characters are gay, both the camera woman and the Lee guy, he comes out in the first book. So the films are very much. The books are very much about them wanting to bring to life, like these people at Pompeii in each book.So I was able to take in way three of my pillars of my passions and bring them into one book. And that's what the prime time series is.

Michael Herst00:55:23

What an opportunity, what a story. I. I mean, I. I need to. I need to read these books.

Neil Laird00:55:30

I think you'll get a kick out of, particularly if you love television. You'll recognize a lot of the behind the Scenes stuff.

Michael Herst00:55:36

Yeah, I appreciate that when we first started doing this, we first contacted each other.Obviously I didn't have time to read them, but the concept itself and the fact that you've included or integrated the aspect of filmmaking, television making and history and time trial, I mean what, what better trio?

Neil Laird00:55:58

It comes natural and it's fun and enabled to kind of play off at conventions and allows me again for the first time in my life to make stuff off and have fun. But the expense of my feckless crew.I mean there's a cheesy TV host and there's a, a gruff Egyptian camera sound guy who's tired of all the Americans telling them how to think.You know, I can kind of all the bits that pieces that I've had traveling around the world is able to create this, this four person crew that very much loves each other and they're very much a team. It's very much a found family. But each adventure, each book is them kind of getting swept off into the past and seeing if they survive or not.

Michael Herst00:56:34

Well, that's that. I think obviously you have two out. You have two out right now. And you're coming with the. It's a three part series, correct?

Neil Laird00:56:43

Yeah, I'm working the third one right now, Primetime Troy, where they go back to the ancient Trojan War.

Michael Herst00:56:48

Plus you pick what, what, like significant aspects of history you pick to go back to. It's like, well done, dude.

Neil Laird00:56:57

I want to go for the marquee, as we say in television. And you know, I want to find something. And again, I picked a lot of his places I've been in love.But also too, I want to get all the major cultures, you know, Rome, Greece and Egypt. And with the third one, Achilles and Patroclus, I want to talk about a famous gay love affair.And you read, if you read the Trojan War or you read the Iliad, you know, you already see it's all kind of really about Achilles brooding when they take his lover away and he stops fighting because they took.So I wanted to kind of play in the convention of that and what it was like and have my modern day crew kind of go back and meet the original characters, Agamemnon and stuff. And still, you know, I listened to the. I, I wrote the book as I always do. I went to on location.I went to Turkey for five weeks last summer and I wrote the first draft of Troy near the ruins. So I'd come back and type away watching the sunset over the Aegean. I wrote Pompeii in near near. Sorrento in the Bay of Naples.And I would take day trips to Pompeii and put headphones on, a walk around and come home and create characters just based on stuff that I met. You know, one of the one. If you go to Pompeii, there's a wonderful villa, a woman named Julia Felix, one of the richest women.And she became a lead character of the book, which I never heard of her before. It's just been reopened. So she became the love interest of Kara, the camera woman in book two.So a lot of inversing myself in just the discovery of finding it, going to Troy and stumbling over the ruins. I don't know what I'm going to write until I start writing it.

Michael Herst00:58:26

What an amazing opportunity to write a book book and walk through history at the same time. I think that the innovation, the unique approach to what you're putting into the book actually is you walking through.You're walking through the book, you're walking through the concept, you're walking through the. Which is cool. Very cool. Very cool.

Neil Laird00:58:43

And it helps I very much because a documentary like, there's one scene in primetime Pompeii, it's a modern scene where Jared, the lead character, has to go back to the presence for a reason. You have to find out, you have to read the book. But it's during the busiest section.So he has to find a place when all the tour guides are there and they ask for his badge and all this stuff. So I was able to. And I wrote that scene after going to Pompeii on a very busy Saturday. I wouldn't have had that scene if I hadn't gone.

Michael Herst00:59:09

If you hadn't been there.

Neil Laird00:59:10

The archaeological park as well. And I use that as a plot point in a chapter in the book. So it's not even just the ruins.It's just the feel of a place and what it's like because again, I'm talking about the modern world and the ancient world, so I could blur them together.

Michael Herst00:59:24

Well.And the advantage is that you've combined your experience in exploring this over a thousand episodes of so many others and traveling to 70 different countries and looking at these archaeological sites in history and historical aspects. And I mean, just. Yeah, I think it's going to be. It's hard to put into words, but I can tell you that, wow, you get me excited. It's a situation.I think that integrating all of that, you've kind of taken what I normally would have watched sitting on my couch in front of the television set and put it in my hands, which I think is pretty cool.

Neil Laird01:00:04

I love. If you read it, let me know. But it'd be good to know how it reaches people too, because I do think it's.At the end of the day, they have to be fun too. These are not intellectual treaties. These are books are to sweep you away. They are armchair travel, which is in many ways what I do for television.So I think it's part and parcel of what I've been doing for the last 30 years. It's just now in book form rather than.

Michael Herst01:00:22

Well, that's what I like about the unique approach. Because I love TV and film so much and I am a history buff and psychological buff. I find this intriguing.From that perspective, what advice would you give to aspiring filmmakers or storytellers who want to make that their mark in the world of nonfiction, either movies or storytelling in any. In any way, whether it be movies, TV or author first, don't wait.

Neil Laird01:00:48

Do it straight away. If you're curious about a place, travel there. If you want to write a book, don't wait till you're 50 to do it. I mean, you could do.But just don't be afraid to fail. That's me. Don't be afraid to fail. You're going to fall on your face a lot.And your first film in your first book and your first travel, whatever, is not going to be flawless. But you get so much better and then you'll find your vibe and you won't want to quit. So there's so many ways to kind of tell that.Now again, you could pick up your phone and. And do something. Just, you know, walking around downtown Brooklyn if you want, doesn't have to be epic, but just start doing it. Start creating. Once.Once you. You poke it, you know, Poke it.

Michael Herst01:01:28

Yep. You have to take the first step and poke it.

Neil Laird01:01:33

Talk about a group cliche, but it's true.

Michael Herst01:01:35

Yeah, that should. We'll put that on that on a T shirt. Take that first step and poke it.

Neil Laird01:01:40

Exactly.

Michael Herst01:01:41

How do we. How do we find your books and how do we find more about you and your. Your books are available on Amazon.

Neil Laird01:01:47

So if you just go to Amazon and Google either Neil Laird or Prime Time Travelers or Primetime Pompeii Travelers is the first one. Pompeii is come out later in the year. Or you can go to Neil Laird.com my website and just learn more about me.But the books are available exclusively through Kindle and Amazon, so that's the place to go to buy them.

Michael Herst01:02:06

I was telling you I'll make sure that's in the show notes as well in Amazon.

Neil Laird01:02:11

Reviews are extremely important. So if you do read it and you like it, please take the time to give me a review because that helps it get seen. The.The more reviews, the more people notice it.

Michael Herst01:02:22

Yes, I agree with that. And I'll make sure that there's a link in the show notes. They can actually click it and go directly to there. So they can find you that fast.Neil, I could talk to you for another couple hours, but we, you know, we can't do this at the moment. It's been.

Neil Laird01:02:40

Do it again.

Michael Herst01:02:41

It's been a pleasure to meet you and to. To walk this journey with you on this conversation. I really appreciate it.You've shared so much and with your wisdom, your experiences and, and what you've achieved and what you've done. But I do have one more thing before we go. Do you have any words of wisdom that you can share?

Neil Laird01:03:01

I think I just said that I, in a way, just, just do it. You know, if you've got it, don't wait until tomorrow, gonna travel, do it today. Just, you know, ask questions. Don't, don't trust every.Everything everybody says. It's an age where everybody's telling everybody what to think. And it's just, it's a lot of BS floating around out there.

Michael Herst01:03:17

A lot of BS for sure. Profound, profound words of wisdom.

Neil Laird01:03:24

Exactly.

Michael Herst01:03:25

Yeah. Again, thank you very much. I really appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you for sharing your journeys and your wisdom with us.

Neil Laird01:03:31

Not at all, not at all.

Michael Herst01:03:33

For everyone out there, thank you very much for being a part of One More Thing before you go, the community. I look forward to our next conversation. Please, like, subscribe, share and write a review. And one more thing before you all go. Have a great day.Have a great weekend. Thank you for being here. Thanks for listening to this episode of.

Neil Laird01:03:52

One More Thing before youe Go.

Michael Herst01:03:54

Check out our website@beforeyougopodcast.com youm can find us as well as subscribe to the program and rate us on your favorite podcast listening platform.