The Transformative Power of Travel: Insights and Perspectives

Michael Herst00:00:01

Hey, one more Thing before you go. What is it about travel that transforms us? Does setting out on a journey make us wiser, more compassionate, or more connected to the world?Is travel sometimes just an escape, a break from every day? Stay tuned. We're going to answer these questions and more. I'm your host, Michael Hirsch. Welcome to One more Thing before you go.Today we are diving into these questions and more with Doug Brower.He's a seasoned traveler and author of the Traveler's Finding Spiritual Growth and Inspiration Through Travel, and someone who has spent a lifetime exploring the world, not just for sights, but for deeper lessons travel can teach us. From childhood road trips across North America to living abroad multiple times, Doug has experienced travel in all forms.Paul Muggeridges study tours, mission trips, and even encounters with prisons around the world.His new book isn't about where to go, but how to go, how to make travel meaningful, how to reflect on the journeys we take, and how to turn travel into a worthy adventure. So if you've ever wondered whether travel can truly change you or if you're just planning your next trip, this conversation is for you.Welcome to show Doug.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:01:26

Thanks so much for having me, Michael.

Michael Herst00:01:29

That's a heck of a story you have in your lifetime. You're a pastor, right? You have done missions all over the world as well.You've traveled the world, not only in the United States, but you've traveled the world. And your wife is your life partner. Not only your life partner, I should say, but she's also your travel partner.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:01:51

Most of the time. I think that she. She does not have the, the same passion for travel that I do. But, yeah, she's been my most frequent partner. That's right.

Michael Herst00:02:02

And that's, and that's. I mean, that's a good thing because I think that sharing those kind of experiences, those cultures and those, you know, that's got it.I mean, that just strengthens the relationship, Right?

Douglas J. Brouwer00:02:12

The last time I moved to Europe to serve a church, she said, I understand that you want to go. I don't. So she came to visit me in the. And the fall, and I came home for Christmas, and somehow we made that work.But, no, she would like to spend time with grandchildren right now.

Michael Herst00:02:31

I understand that. I. Yes, I do. I definitely understand that there's priorities, right? Priorities. And grandchildren are. Well, both are priority. I.I should be careful with that. Well, I start at the beginning. Like, where'd you grow up?

Douglas J. Brouwer00:02:49

I grew up in Western Michigan in what I have come. Well, what I thought at the time was A narrow, hyper religious community. I couldn't wait to leave.And here I am in retirement, back where I started from, partly because it's a beautiful area. I live along Lake Michigan and I can't imagine a better place to. To retire.

Michael Herst00:03:16

I think that. Well, it's interesting because I know that even with my wife and I, we've traveled a lot.Not, not as much as we've wanted to, but we have traveled, but home always seems to be home. And when we moved, we both grew up in Colorado and different parts in Colorado, then all my life. And then she was there for the majority of her life.And know every time we go back, we still have a craving to go back. Until it snows, then it changes.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:03:50

Yes. And I have a craving to leave Michigan in January, February and March.

Michael Herst00:03:56

I can relate to that. We used to live in a Woodland Park, Colorado, and she grew up in Estes Park, Colorado. And that's about.Both of them are over 8,000, you know, square feet. It's not square feet. 8, 000ft above sea level and up behind. Up behind Pikes Peak is one of them. That's where Woodland park is.And at 8, 500ft, it would snow sometimes in. Not sometimes, all the time in May.And then it wouldn't go way to like October or so, but beautiful and quiet when, you know, when it landed on the trees, you know, that part was nice. That was nice. But did you. You go to university, go to college?

Douglas J. Brouwer00:04:34

I went to college here too. I remember saying to my dad, I'd like to go away to school. And he said, fine, you can go anywhere you want.But my tuition dollars are going to this small religious college that was nearby. And I don't regret having gone there. I had a terrific experience.But when, when I graduated from college, that was when I decided to leave and be on my own at last.

Michael Herst00:05:03

Yeah, I think we, we kind of appreciate that in lifetime it gives us an opportunity now. I like the way your dad put it. It's like you can go wherever you want to, but this is the one I'm paying for. Yeah, I like that.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:05:17

Well, I should make clear that I was the first person in my immigrant family to go to college. And so this was. I knew that there was pressure on me to accomplish this, and I feel good about having done it. And they were proud of me. So.

Michael Herst00:05:34

Very cool.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:05:34

No hard feelings.

Michael Herst00:05:35

Very cool, Very cool. Where did mask where they immigrated from?

Douglas J. Brouwer00:05:41

My family on both sides are from the Netherlands.

Michael Herst00:05:45

Oh, very cool.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:05:46

Yeah.

Michael Herst00:05:47

Yeah. My grandmother on my father's Side her and her family had immigrated here from Austria. So it's, it's. What would that make me?Well, third, second generation. Third generation had my father. My father was born here, so my grandmother would be my second generation.Sometimes that gets confusing, I guess, just a little is my third cousin from the second uncle. You know, three times down, those kind of things. Then it gets convoluted. But yeah, it's. So I appreciate immigrants from that perspective.I think that we all have come from somewhere and, you know, able to make a life here. So kudos to your relatives for moving here and bringing you. I would like to start this off, if you don't mind, because I love travel.Why, as human beings, do we want to travel?

Douglas J. Brouwer00:06:47

You know, I should say right at the beginning that I make a distinction between vacation, travel and other kinds. I, I'm going to sound like a boar, a terrible boar to some of your listeners. I, I get it that sometimes we just need to get away. We need a.A place at the lake or the ocean. We need an opportunity to read a book and sit in the sun. I have done my share of that. I understand it.But my parents gave me the gift of curiosity and I wasn't appreciative at the time like most children, but in adulthood I see that. Oh my goodness, they, they made me want to see the, the world out there.And so for most of my life, I've been doing my best to get around and to see as much as I could.

Michael Herst00:07:43

Well, I think, you know, we, I think travel in from our. At least from my perspective, my wife's perspective, and I have several individuals that travel for various reasons.You know, her, her grandfather, my wife's grandfather, and her grandparents both. Both of them, I guess they did missionary work all over the world as well. And their perspective of travel wasn't specific just to missionary stuff.Even when you would. Or to see family, they would do that one, one or the other.It would be either to see family or their missionary work and that that was the way they traveled. They didn't take too many vacations from a recreational perspective in that regard.But I think that we all need a little, a little break from life occasionally to kind of refresh and enjoy nature and what the universe brings us.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:08:34

Interestingly, my parents were ready to go on a road trip as soon as school was out in the spring. So within a matter of days after the end of school, we would load up the car.We weren't campers, but we loaded up the car and we went all over North America. And I can't imagine that was relaxing for my father. It was in the days before air conditioning was standard in, in cars.So we traveled with the windows open, but, oh, my goodness, we, we rode hundreds of miles every day sometimes, and the idea was to see as much as we could.

Michael Herst00:09:15

So the, the original Chevy Chase vacation pile, everybody.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:09:26

There were two. I had two sisters in the back seat, and surprisingly, we got along pretty well.

Michael Herst00:09:32

Well, that's good. That, that's always helpful, especially on a long trip in a car. You talk about travel as a worthy adventure. What does that mean to you?I mean, I know that you've done a lot. I, I love history. My wife and I watch Josh Gates on Expedition Unknown.And the most fascinating aspect of that, along with several other shows that we watch about the, like the history of castles and the history of Scotland or the history of Ireland or England. And it's all about the location. It's about the, the history, the, you know, touching history, walking in the footsteps of historical aspects.What is worthy, worthy, you know, worthy adventure like that mean.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:10:18

Yeah, I'm glad you focused in on that term. I can't claim credit for it. The ethicist Stanley Hauerwas, who taught for many years at Duke, asks us to see all of life as a worthy adventure.And I, I understand that. I try to live that way, but I, in my book, I use it primarily to talk about my travels. In other words, these travels are undertaken intentionally.Not only do I want to see and explore, but I want to get to know and understand different cultures. So I want to be purposeful in the way I travel. And that term worthy adventure just seemed to fit my purposes.

Michael Herst00:11:06

I think we all look for a purpose in life and, you know, that's a.That in itself is a worthy purpose because it gives you an opportunity to experience other cultures, other societies, you know, have conversations in those cultures and societies as well as. Again, as well as you can walk in, in history. You know, for me, the aspect of touching history that.That has been here for thousands and thousands of years, and to walk the footsteps basically is an amazing opportunity, actually.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:11:35

And there is so much to see in this country. I've spent a lot of my adult life going to other countries, but the truth is the United States and Canada are just filled with amazing attractions.I'll give you one example. I never learned wonder and awe in church, even though I went to church quite a bit as a child.But I learned wonder and awe by going to some of the national parks in the US Seeing the grand Canyon for the first time was overwhelming to me. I must have been 10 or 11 years old and I don't think I'd ever experienced that feeling before.And so wonder and awe became real to me at that point in my life.

Michael Herst00:12:24

Is that the, I mean, you've traveled extensively that what you just said with the Grand Canyon is, is that like the, the one experience that actually profoundly changed you in, in regard to travel?

Douglas J. Brouwer00:12:36

Oh, that's an interesting question, but I think, no, I mean, every summer had its own, own eye opening experience. So that was, that was just an early one.

Michael Herst00:12:48

One of the best things that we really enjoyed, especially as kids from the back seat, was just looking and, and taking everything in.Whenever we drove any place, the mountains, the trees, the ocean, the, you know, everything, we had the opportunity to look out that window and just embrace what the, what's created. I mean, I'm looking around like I'm still looking at it now, what was created and where we live and, and you know what it is the all. Back to the all.It's just. Yeah.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:13:21

My father. So here's an interesting wrinkle.My father was an artist and he didn't paint when we went on vacation, but he took his camera and he always had a fancy 35 millimeter camera. And I, I think I learned to view the world through his eyes.He would crawl around on the ground or climb in places you shouldn't have been climbing, but always looking for a, a new perspective, an interesting way of seeing things. And I mean that, that made an impression on me. I, I tried to see things the way he saw them.

Michael Herst00:13:56

I, you know, it's a great way of looking at it because, especially from a photographer or painter's perspective, because the artistic and creative side of it gives you, it seems to me that it opens your eyes a little more to what's really there because you look at the intricacies of everything that is combined. How the tree looks, what the tree looks like, what the flowers.If there's flowers on the trees or flowers on the ground, you get a new look at it because you're looking at it from a different lens.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:14:23

I can't resist saying this to you too. Today, most travelers seem to relish taking selfies. So here I am at the Grand Canyon. Here I am standing beneath the Eiffel Tower and so on.I don't remember if you can believe this. I don't remember a single family photo. Here we are at the Grand Canyon. It never happened. So what I got from that was, we're here to see beauty.We're here to. Not to celebrate ourselves, but we're here to see what the world has to offer us, which.

Michael Herst00:15:00

That's brilliant. Actually, you mentioned in a separate part of your book, you mentioned that not all travel in history has been voluntary.How does that perspective shape the way we. That we travel?

Douglas J. Brouwer00:15:12

Yeah. When I went to seminary, my first field education assignment was in a prison. I was a student chaplain.My classmates all worked in, you know, suburban churches, safe environments. And somehow I found myself as a prison chaplain, a 21, 22 year old. And I have to say that this was a very formative time in my life.I realized that there were people who could not move around. And then in the. In the course of my travels, I began to notice prisons everywhere I went. And so in the book, as you noticed, I.I went to Robin island, where the South African President Nelson Mandela was kept for, I don't know, 19 years of the 24 years he was incarcerated. I saw prison. I got to know a prison in the HA where International Criminal Court people are kept and there are others.So remarkably enough, prisons around the world have become a part of my interest in traveling. And it was because of that very early experience in my life of meeting the men. They were all men in this particular prison, all the men there.And I realized that my job was to recognize something in them that no one else was seeing. Their humanity was what I tried to focus on.

Michael Herst00:16:47

Well, and that's profound, I think, you know, it's.Sometimes we forget that although they are prisoners, you know, they're in there for a reason, that they're human beings as well, and they're, they're sons. There's their fathers, their sons, their brothers. You know, it. It is, it's a perspective that, that not everybody thinks about.You know, as a law enforcement officer in my career, a very active law enforcement officer in this career, you know, I probably put to at least 3,000 people in jail for various reasons. I've worked fugitive task force, I've worked DUI task force. I've worked domestic violence, trafficking, charge of traffic investigator, you name it.The one thing that I always remembered because my father taught me is that people are human. And we always have to remember that people are human. They also make mistakes. And when they. That doesn't make him any less human.And so I appreciate you doing what you did.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:17:48

You know, it's not just the chaplain who recognizes the humanity. In the last church I served in the Hague, a person who became a member of our church was a judge at the International Criminal Court.And I don't know if you remember reading this story, but she told me a little bit about her work. And I, without thinking, I said, oh, that sounds fascinating. And without, without thinking, she came back and said, it's heartbreaking.

Michael Herst00:18:19

Yeah.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:18:20

And I realized then the, the difficulty of her and the importance of her work. Someone had to view the evidence and someone had to make the. The awful decision.So I recognize the value of your work, and I recognize the value of, of her work.

Michael Herst00:18:40

Well, I appreciate that very much. I think, again, you have to have compassion, you have to have humanity, you have to have understanding.You have to have all three of those, and you have to have empathy in all four of those in order to.Especially when you're dealing with people in a public nature of any sort, and especially in the job that we did and what you do, what you do as a pastor, because you recognize that people are human beings and people do make mistakes. So it, you know, it, it's a, It's a good thing. What, what inspired you to write the Traveler's Path was any particular journey.Was it the, the prison aspect of it or just a combination of everything? Because it sounds like that gave you kind of a launching point.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:19:25

Yeah. So in the acknowledgments, I mentioned that I was having dinner one evening with my younger daughter in a.A restaurant in the Hague in the neighborhood where I was living for a year. And my younger daughter said to me, I was, I was thinking about next book project.And my younger daughter said to me, dad, it's so obvious you have spent your life traveling and going places and seeing things. Why are you struggling with this? And I had to admit that she was right. There was this book waiting to be written about a lifetime of travel.But what's interesting is not that I've been so many places, because lots of people go places, but the angle I thought that I could contribute was to encourage people to be purposeful about their travel, to recognize the value in other cultures, to let other cultures teach us. So the, the focus of my book became not, you know, how wonderful my travels were and they.And they have been, but the, the, Instead, the focus became, what can we learn from going so many places?

Michael Herst00:20:42

Yeah, I, I, and I appreciate that as well. It reminds me of a conversation I had.I belonged to a couple of travel groups in April that my friend April Bledsfeld runs, and she has a group of experienced travel people. She primarily takes women groups all over the world, and she found it really interesting.She told a Story during one of her sessions where when you just spoke about the different cultures and getting to understand them, they were in Japan and they were getting ready to get on one of the subways. I think it was a subway train or subway. They don't have subways. They have trains, I guess.And when they were getting ready to get on the train, somebody bumped one of the. One of the ladies and the phone fell down on the track and they should know how to get it.And somebody, A Japanese fellow, in pointing, like, you can see the. Everybody you could see. He saw what happened. He jumped out. He took off down past him. He looked at them and just told him kind of like, stay here.Went and grabbed somebody, brought that person back. One of the train. The. One of the.Not really just somebody that worked there, brought them back and then pointed to the phone and pointed to them, and then jumped back on the train as soon as the train moved.The guy that he brought back, spoke English, saw what the situation was, soon as the train was gone, jumped down, grabbed the woman's phone and brought it back to her. And, you know, you never see that in. You know, you would. You really wouldn't see that, especially in Phoenix, you know, you would not see that.It just wouldn't take place. Or Denver or, you know, especially the larger cities that I've been into. I wouldn't think that would ever go.But she said it was profound to really understand that the culture there had more of a respect, like, oh, these people need help. Let me go find help for them. I'll bring them here.And even if they would have missed their train because they got right back on right before it took off, it was okay.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:22:56

That is a wonderful story, and I think it perfectly illustrates what my own experience has been as well. It's those moments when we're afraid when something is not going right. I mean, illness, I guess, is another example.Those are the moments when we really learn something about the culture in which we find ourselves.

Michael Herst00:23:19

Yeah, I agree with that. I do. This is a selfish question, too, with this next one that I've been thinking of. And I had to make note of this one.You had to learn a new language at 60. First of all, what's your secret? Second of all, what was that experience like? Did it change the way you look at the world by. But, I mean, it's.I think it would be at. I know it's hard for me. I'm trying to learn French, and I even took four years of French in high school.But I'm at An age that most of that, but a few words I forgot completely, you know. So what was that like?

Douglas J. Brouwer00:23:59

I learned German because I was living in a German speaking part of Switzerland and it was required for my work permit. And learning a language, as you say, after age 60, is not easy.One of the reasons I, I think the main reason is that the brain isn't, is all wired up differently by age 60. But another similar reason is that before age 10, we don't mind making mistakes. Grammatical mistakes, pronunciation mistakes are not so bad.But when you get to be 60, you feel embarrassed and self conscious about the way you speak. And so one of the ways I overcame that in learning German was by joining conversation groups with other expats.So we would get together at lunchtime, for example, and for an hour we agreed to speak to each other only in German. And we had lots of laughter about the mistakes we were making. And it all felt comfortable. And ultimately I passed the exam.It surprises me still, but I did achieve the level of competence that was required for the, the work permit. But you're right, it's very, very difficult after a certain age to learn a language.

Michael Herst00:25:23

It's sometimes difficult, like you said, even when we're at this age, like Pilgrim.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:25:31

Yeah.

Michael Herst00:25:32

Oh, yeah. It's, you know, sometimes it just. Yeah.So it's, I think that, I think learning a new language, even at any age, it would be beneficial to us to keep our brain functioning at a very healthy level to learn new things like this.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:25:47

I think scientists have found that, that people who are bilingual have different brain wiring there. It helps them age better. I don't know that that's going to help me very much, but. So here's the argument I would.Aside from fighting off aging and normal aging in the brain, I think the, the value to language learning is to understand other cultures better.

Michael Herst00:26:12

Yeah.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:26:13

Americans and British people for that matter, expect the rest of the world to speak English to us.

Michael Herst00:26:20

Yeah.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:26:21

And, and we're unapologetic about it.But I, I find that when I make an attempt to speak someone else's language that it's very much appreciated by the people I'm speaking to, Even, even if they speak English very, very well.

Michael Herst00:26:39

I agree with that. I, I do know, I do speak Italian.I grew up in an Italian environment, in a little Italian community, so I do speak a little bit of Italian, so that helps. But that was something I learned when I was 11 years old.And forward from that, and I agree with you, it helps us to understand culture and how they look at things and how they view things and the understanding of all that. I appreciate that. But, yeah, it still could be, we'll just say challenging after a certain age. Just a little challenging.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:27:20

I went to see the doctor one time in Switzerland, where I was living, and I. I had rehearsed on the way over how to explain my symptoms.And after stumbling through my symptoms with my, you know, primary care physician, he said in English, why don't you just tell me in your own language how you're feeling? But I think he appreciated the effort.

Michael Herst00:27:43

Yeah, what I got out of that was, your foot is stuck to your back. That's. That's what I got out of your conversation. So thank you. I know that in some of the notes that I have on you, you're not a fan of bucket list.Why do you think people create them? And I mean, what's a better way to create goals? I. I personally, I think bucket list.And when I say this, no disrespect to anybody that has one, but I think that when we start creating bucket list, it's almost like I think I'm at the end of my life type thing. And I believe in a wish list that I want to. My wife and I want to accomplish. We want to go to Tuscany. We want to go to southern France.We want to go to northern Spain. Those are just wish list things. What would be the difference between a travel wish list and a bucket list, in your opinion?

Douglas J. Brouwer00:28:37

Yeah, like you, I've got places I'd still like to go to. I haven't traveled much in Asia, for example, and that's still continent. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But here's.Here's the issue for me, or at least one of them. I think that it creates a mentality where we can check something off a list. All right, We've been there.We've seen the Eiffel Tower, or we've seen the Mona Lisa at the Louvre. And, okay, now we don't have to go back there. It's done. And, I mean, that's not how I think about travel at all. So. Okay, that would be one issue.And the other issue, based on my reading, is that people often compile lists to impress other people. But in when people are sick or facing the end of their lives, the truth is they want what is familiar. They want to.They want family members around them. They want their own home if they can stay in their home. So typically, when.I mean, this is what researchers say, when people compile bucket lists, it's primarily to impress other people.

Michael Herst00:29:50

I. I I would agree with that. And, you know, just a note, a nod to what you said.You know, as a law enforcement officer and both personally and professionally, I was present when a lot of people had died because we know that life can change in an instant. And also life can take time. I've been with. My father died of cancer. My grandparents both died of cancer.I have two uncles that died of cancer, three cousins that died of cancer. From that perspective, it's a long goodbye. My father. Father in law died of Lewy body dementia. It's kind of a long goodbye situation.But in those particular cases and even professionally, being there to hold somebody's hand before they passed away, in situations like a traffic accident or, you know, other. Other travesties that had taken place, they just wanted somebody to be with them when they passed. They wanted somebody to be there.They will not want to die alone.You know, that's why One more thing was before you go was actually developed in the first place, and this podcast was brought about almost six years ago now was because life can change in an instant, and we should value those instances and embrace life and take the opportunity to say what we want to say before losing somebody or, you know, and to be there for people in their life.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:31:20

Exactly.

Michael Herst00:31:21

Because that's what they're looking for. That's what they're looking for. I mean, that's. That's a little. Little extra more than to really answer your. That question or you.The question that you answered. But I think it kind of pertains a little bit to those people that I've seen. And the people that I watched didn't have a bucket list.What they had was the want and the need to be around family and friends.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:31:48

Yep. Yep. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that story. I think you and I think alike about this. In the book, I contrast the. The movies bucket list with.Is it Morgan Freeman and Jack Nicholson.

Michael Herst00:32:01

Yeah.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:32:02

Where they. They're cancer patients and they travel the world. But the. The movie that I actually prefer is It's a Wonderful Life starring Jimmy Stewart. And the.The truth is he wanted to go away to school and he wanted to go to Europe and so on, but he never did. And the truth is he discovered that he had a very rich, full life by never leaving Bedford Falls. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Herst00:32:32

And the interesting part is, is now that is a classic. They. They thought the movie was just going to be a drop in the bucket. And what. This, 50 years later is a classic. So. Yeah. Very cool.Because you are from the religious sect. What role does spirituality play? In travel. You think travel can, like, find maybe a deeper sense? We were talking about purpose earlier.I believe in purpose. We all need purpose. Do you think that helps us to find a deeper sense of purpose or belonging?

Douglas J. Brouwer00:33:04

Yes, but even before that, I want to mention wonder and awe. I think that's a spiritual dimension to our lives too.The capacity to experience the sense that the, the world is larger than our own, larger than what we can see. But part of the reason for exploring other cultures and learning from them is the recognition that God has created a world with incredible variety.And to think that we Americans know everything, we know the best way to do everything is, Is very limited and sad in a way.So the, the spiritual dimension that I have found in travel is to discover what else is out there, what else God has in mind for us, you know, through the variety in creation. There's more to it than that. I've. I would say that the people I've met while traveling have sometimes been life changing for me.I mean, I could give you dozens of examples, but I once met an Arab Christian pastor in Galilee, and he started a school there for Jews and Muslims and Christians. And I, I found that in getting to know him, I, I learned a whole different viewpoint on, say, Middle Eastern politics.I don't want to talk too much about that, but it was very helpful to hear him talk as a Christian pacifist about his own experience, his desire for peace and the work he did for peace. I think he changed the way I thought about my own work as a pastor.So I'm very grateful for the people I've met along the way and what they can teach me about what's important.

Michael Herst00:35:02

I like that perspective.And that's interesting, being in, coming from the Middle east and because you think, when you think Middle east, we think most everybody there is Muslim and, and, or Jewish and, and forget about the Christian side of it and how those sometimes overlap with each other and, and how that plays a factor.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:35:21

It's not a big, it's certainly not a big segment of the population. I think 5% of Israeli citizens are, are Christian, but they've been in the land since the earliest Christian times.They have a long history, and I think they're. It's important to pay attention to them.

Michael Herst00:35:44

I agree with that. I agree. My wife and I have this, this problem. How can travelers balance the desire for adventure with the need for rest and relaxation?Because every time we go someplace, I have a list. It's like, we got to do this, we got to do this. We Got to do this. We got to do this.And she's going, I just want to sit on the beach in that chair with a, you know, Mai Tai in a shade.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:36:12

Well, it sounds like you're good for each other. I'm glad you have her.Last February, my wife was recovering from some surgery, and we just needed to get out of the harsh Michigan winter, so we went south to a barrier island off the coast of South Carolina. And I had never been there before, and I can't. I sometimes I can't help myself. I had to read a history.So I found a history of the island, and I wanted to know everything about it. But what was. What was most beneficial about that vacation?And you just said it yourself, what was most beneficial was sitting on the beach for three days with nothing to do. That's what we needed.

Michael Herst00:36:59

That's what you needed. So, I mean, I guess sometimes we kind of try to balance it out. I mean, in all fairness to my wife and to myself, we try to balance it out.We kind of split. Split the difference, basically. We go and make sure we do some things because I'm. I love walking in history, wherever we go. I love touching history.I love feeling history, breathing history, really understanding, you know, because when you're doing that, you're experiencing culture from not only the present perspective, but you're doing it from, in some cases, a couple thousand years. And, you know, that that opportunity is, to me, is amazing. And, you know, she does, too. But again, it's kind of a balance.We get to relax a little bit, and then we go do something, and then we go back and relax a little bit, and then we go do something. So, yeah, it works. It works. You have written a number of books, not just the one that we're speaking about. What's some of the other books about?And had you ever. Had you. Did you think you were going to be an author?

Douglas J. Brouwer00:38:03

I think the short answer is yes. I had a fifth grade teacher who once told me, I mean, all children long to hear, you know, you're really good at this.And I wanted it to be a baseball coach saying, doug, you can hit a baseball. Well, that never happened. But I had a fifth grade teacher who told me that I could write a good story. Yeah. And I will be forever thankful for Mrs.DeYoung. I won second prize in a Poet Pros and poetry contest that year.

Michael Herst00:38:40

Second's great.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:38:42

Yeah. Yeah. Well, if I told you about the first place finisher, you wouldn't feel so bad either. He teaches English literature these days, so it was skewed.Yeah. I didn't have a chance against him, but, yeah, since fifth grade, I've. I've been telling stories, writing them and speaking them.

Michael Herst00:39:06

Yeah, that's a good thing. That probably makes you a good pastor, too.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:39:10

Yeah, I hope so. A preacher.

Michael Herst00:39:13

Well, preacher. I mean, it. Forgive me. It. It is. I think that communication is the key to understanding and empathy.And I think that the good communication just makes it much more worthwhile because you can reach more people with word and maybe a little music thrown in and a little dance thrown in on top of that. It. It makes a good experience.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:39:37

Yeah. You won't see me dancing, but I. You ask about a book other than the travel book, and so the one. The book I wrote just before.The travel book is a memoir of my life as a pastor. And what makes it unusual, I think, is that I have some regrets. I think I spent a good part of my life chasing a career.I felt good about myself when I was serving larger and larger churches. And then I reached a certain point in my life where I realized that that was empty and shallow.And the book describes how I fell into that trap and what I did to escape it. So, yeah, the book is an honest account of a pastor's life.

Michael Herst00:40:26

Please tell everybody how we can buy any of your books, especially these two, and how they can get in touch with you.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:40:35

Those books are available wherever fine books are sold, but Amazon is. And Barnes and Noble would be the two main places. And then I have a substack newsletter with a very imaginative title. It's Doug Substack.

Michael Herst00:40:50

That. That. That was probably a little. Was that difficult to come up with?

Douglas J. Brouwer00:40:56

No. I had a blog in. In 2012 called Doug's Blog, so it works.

Michael Herst00:41:03

Reminds me. Reminds me of the cartoon. The cartoon. My. Our daughters used to watch Doug. And everything was Doug. Yeah, everything was Doug.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:41:14

I know it. I know the cartoon.

Michael Herst00:41:16

This has been an amazing conversation. I appreciate you sharing your journey, your wisdom and inspiration as well.I hope that we've been able to inspire, motivate, and educate some people today. And I appreciate you very much for what you bring to the world, Michael.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:41:31

It's been good to get to know you, too. I very much appreciate this time with you.

Michael Herst00:41:35

Well, this is one more thing before you go, so I have to ask this question. Any words of wisdom? If someone wants to make like life more interesting, to find their purpose, find their purpose in travel or how to.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:41:49

Get more involved, you don't have to go far. That would be my word of wisdom. You don't have to go far at all, but you need to travel with your eyes open and alert to the people around you.And there's far more beauty around us than we might imagine.

Michael Herst00:42:06

Brilliant words of wisdom. I think, yes, we should all take that to heart, especially when we're even when we're walking out the door. So I appreciate that.Again, I'll make sure all those are in the show notes and easy way to get in touch with you from that perspective and an easy way to find your books. And thank you again for coming on the show. I greatly appreciate it.

Douglas J. Brouwer00:42:25

Thanks, Michael.

Michael Herst00:42:27

For everyone else out there, thank you very much for being a part of One More Thing before you Go Community. I appreciate each and every one of you. Please like subscribe and review us. And one more thing before you all go, have a great day.Have a great week and thank you for being here. Thanks for listening to this episode of One More Thing before youe Go.Check out our website@beforeyougopodcast.com youm can find us as well as subscribe to the program and rate us on your favorite podcast listening platform.