Ashes to Flame: Breaking Cycles & Reclaiming Power

Hey, one more thing before you go.

What if trauma didn't define you but dared you to rise?

What if healing didn't begin with sinus but with fire?

In this week's episode, I have one more thing before you go.

I sit down with Donna Simmons.

She's a survivor, an author, and a fierce advocate for justice and for healing.

She's a native of Kentucky.

Donna helped lead the charge to end legal child marriage in her home state, transforming policy with the same courage she used to transform her own life.

And we're going to talk about that through her memoir, Ashes to Flames.

In her podcast, the Last Generation, Donna shares her journey from abuse and exploitation to embodied healing and radical compassion.

She doesn't just speak truth, she ignites it.

Her voice is a catalyst for survivors, cycle breakers, and anyone caring to believe in a different future.

This isn't just a conversation about trauma.

It's a reckoning.

It's a remembering, a call to rise from the ashes and reclaim your power.

If you're looking to reclaim your power to start on the journey of healing as a survivor and you don't know where to start, we're going to have answers for you.

So stay tuned.

I'm your host, Michael Hurst.

Please, I glitched.

Stay tuned.

I'm your host, Michael Hurst.

Welcome to One more thing before you go.

Welcome to the show, Donna.

Thank you so much, Michael.

It's a pleasure to be a guest on your show.

You know, what an amazing journey that your life has taken.

And there's got some ups and some downs and some triumphs, a little bit of tragedy.

I think that the triumphs outweigh the tragedy at this point.

And I think that I applaud you for what you bring to the world and in the empowerment that you give to individuals with regard to the ability to say, hey, I'm not alone.

And there is some hope.

So I appreciate you very much.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much.

I really appreciate that encouragement.

I like to start at the beginning.

So I know you grew up in Kentucky.

Yes, yes, I have lived here the majority of my life.

I didn't live one place more than two years growing up, but primarily it has been around the state of Kentucky.

Do you have any brothers, sisters?

I have a sister who is 10 years older than me.

Yes.

And that's actually the reason that I moved to Louisville, which is where I am now.

I moved here when I was 19 and I got out of a really abusive situation, and my sister was living here with her husband.

And so I came to Louisville to be Closer to her.

Family is important, and family is important for support, I think, in all aspects.

Well, today we're going to talk about a very sensitive subject, so I appreciate your time in doing so because I know that this goes deep and it goes way back.

So I appreciate it.

But if we can get a little foundation here so we can understand.

We're going to talk about child marriage a little bit in here, maybe a little more.

But what are some of the ramifications of that?

Help us understand what child marriage actually is and is defined as?

Can.

Can we do that?

Yeah, absolutely.

So if we're looking at the legal definition of child marriage, that is a marriage that occurs where at least one of the parties is under the age of majority, which most states just identify as the age of 18 and up.

So anything 17 and under would be considered child marriage.

There's a couple of different parameters around that though, and each state handles it differently.

There's through parental consent, oftentimes 16 and 17 year olds are able to get married if there's no law prohibiting that in the state under the age of 16.

Most states require a judge to approve that marriage and there's more often than not a pregnancy involved.

And that's what they call the pregnancy exception.

You know, in my opinion, it's unfortunate that that has to.

That it has taken place and then continues to take place in lot of different states within the United States.

At the time that, that this happened to you, was it pretty prevalent in Kentucky?

It was.

And you know, of course at the time I wasn't aware of how prevalent it was.

My case was really unique in the sense that I was a resident of Kentucky when it happened.

My perpetrator was a resident of Indiana and I was taken to Tennessee.

So.

So I had three states involved in this.

And you know, there was no intersection compact or anything between the states that prohibited a minor from being taken to one in order to be married off.

And you know, these were all things that we looked at when we were addressing the legality of it.

In my home state of Kentucky that same year, I actually lobbied in both Indiana and Tennessee as well to achieve.

Legislative changes there, which is amazing because you would think that taking a child across state lines for something that is illegal would obviously take a precedent in whether or not you charge somebody or whether or not you take action with that.

To the best of your knowledge, you know, if there's child marriage practice in other states, do you know what other states might be still unfortunately, within that realm?

Oh, absolutely.

So I can tell you that in the US only 15 states right now ban child marriage altogether.

And even in my home state of Kentucky, in Indiana and Tennessee, you know, the other states that I lobbied in back in 2018, we were able to get the age limit raised to 17.

We did away with the pregnancy exception.

We did away with parental consent.

There now has to be judge involvement to determine if it's a predatory situation, to assess the disparity in age.

But in those three states, it's still not entirely prohibited.

Again, only 15 states do ban it altogether.

And when you consider the fact that since the year 2000, there have been over 300,000 cases of child marriage in the U.S. it is certainly a prevalent problem that hides in the shadows.

That is, I mean, as a father, I have two young ladies.

That really kind of.

That angers me to a point and it upsets me to a point.

And I wish that there was more that I could do about that.

So hopefully we can get some people kind of educated here and maybe inspire them to take action in their own states.

How did you find yourself in a marriage at that young age?

And how old were you?

Yeah, so I was 16 when I was married off to a man that was 31.

And, you know, the grooming for that really started as a very young child.

Grew up in a house where there was a lot of abuse.

There was a lot of generational trauma.

My mom had also been married off at an extremely young age.

Actually, when she married my dad, he already had two boys from his first marriage and had been divorced.

He had already served for a couple of years in the Korean War at that point.

And this is back in 1955, and she had just completed the eighth grade, like, she had an eighth grade education and became a stepmother to these two young little boys and a soldier's wife, you know.

And then, you know, she definitely had a lot of her own history with her parents being abusive.

And between that, the lack of education, the fact that, you know, now she was.

Had all this responsibility put on her at 13 years of age, she ended up not being in a good mentally healthy state.

And so by the time I was born, you know, I suffered a lot at the hands of that, through that and through, you know, her not taking action.

When I disclosed other forms of abuse that occurred when I was small, it really set me up to be groomed.

And when I was 14, and this is right after my father passed away, he died of lung cancer when I was 13.

And so when I was 14, you know, given the abuse, given his Death given, you know, me taking care of him for eight months leading up to his death.

My mother ended up putting me in a behavioral health facility because I was self harming, I was acting out.

And also, probably more than anything, I was starting to stand up to her when she was attempting to abuse me physically.

And so when I went into this behavioral health facility in 1998 when I was 14, I met a mental health technician there who was 29 and that is who I now refer to as my perpetrator because he groomed me, he groomed my mom.

And flash forward a couple of years after my mom let me date him.

And I use that, you know, term very loosely because there wasn't anything dating about it.

It was predatory.

But she let me see him for two years before agreeing to sign me over to marry him.

And you know, he paid her $1,000 for that as well.

So essentially she trafficked me to him.

And you know, in my story and the story of so many others, we see that through the legality of child marriage, it is perversely hypocritical when it comes to laws regarding consent and statutory rape offenses.

You know, had him, had he not been granted a marriage license, he could have been charged with statutory rape.

But when we allow predators to marry children, we are literally giving them a license to continue abusing that child.

And that's not just my story.

When I pulled the stats on the state of Kentucky, we had a little 13 year old girl that was married off to a 33 year old man and she was pregnant.

And we had a 15 year old girl married off to a 52 year old man who was also pregnant.

And I could go on and on.

You know, those are two examples of 11,000 cases of child marriage that had occurred at the time.

I pulled the data in 2018 and.

I think that, you know, especially as a father and a father of two young ladies, it's kind of one of these things that I don't quite understand the philosophy by allowing a 13 year old, a 12 year old, 13 year old, 14 year old to be able to get pregnant and get married, especially to an older man.

I think that there's a very serious issue in regard to that.

But thank you for sharing.

I mean, that's honest and I'm sure it was hard.

I imagine the way to being placed into a situation like that at that young age, the intergenerational trauma along with it.

And I'm sure you had other atrocities that had kind of compounded upon itself.

But yet your voice Today carries not just the truth, but it carries strength.

Strength.

I think that you didn't just survive, you kind of transformed.

What was your turning point in this journey, if I can ask?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I'll tell you, I've had a few of them.

You know, I definitely believe that healing isn't linear.

It's, you know, definitely a journey that we go on and we take all kinds of twists and turns along that way.

Really.

What was the catalyst for me leaving when I was 19 was that, you know, I had gotten pregnant when I was 17 and gave birth to my daughter when I was 18.

I had pretty much just turned 18 as well.

And my birthday is actually at the end of January and my oldest daughter's birthday is the beginning of March, if that tells you, you know, how fresh teen I was.

And right after I turned 18, my perpetrator had me working at a strip club.

So, you know, my credibility was shot, you know, and he definitely had orchestrated things to, you know, make me look like, you know, not a fit mother or what have you.

And when I left him and the divorce proceedings were occurring, when the judge looked on paper at, you know, here I was again at the time a 19 year old kid.

Basically, I had stopped working at that place, but I was working for like 8 bucks an hour, 20 hours a week, you know, no education, right.

My perpetrator had his degree, he had his bachelor's degree, was going to start working on his master's degree and he had income that was more sustainable at that point.

And so the judge didn't take into account the age disparity.

He very much, you know, took into account what he said about me working at a strip club and, you know, again, ruining my credibility.

And so he ended up giving my perpetrator custody of my daughter.

And it was so atrocious, so heartbreaking for me that, you know, here I thought that I was going to be able to take my daughter with me.

You know, when I was looking at apartments and stuff, it was one of the things I was considering.

I had passed over one super cheap apartment because it had a radiator out that was exposed.

And I was concerned that, you know, it would get hot, she would burn herself.

And so I opted for a little bit more expensive apartment or whatever at that time.

You know, these were things that, of course, I'm planning, you know, as I'm making my escape.

And to know that the best I could ask for is visitation, which he very much kept controlled and would try to antagonize me and Try to intimidate me and such.

When that happened, I realized that so much of the silence that I had to bear and so much of the shame that I carried, whether it was from not getting custody of my.

Of my child, you know, or even being married off at such a young age, where all the abuse that I had experienced, I had to get to the point where I realized that that shame that was associated with all of that wasn't mine to carry, and that I had the choice.

I could either live out and become a statistic the way that, you know, so many children that have been abused significantly and endured significant trauma and exploitation have, or I could take control of my narrative.

I could take control of my life for the first time, and in doing so, light the path for others to recognize that they could do the same.

And so that's what ended up initially motivating me to start speaking out.

And then, of course, once I started collecting data, because I knew that would be really important in the fight to end child marriage and, you know, address other laws that perpetuate harm against children, once I started getting the data, I realized, oh, my gosh, there's, like, no way that I will ever stop fighting, because it is way too prevalent, and people don't know about it because there's so much stigma, there's so much shame.

There's so much silence that's wrapped around all of it.

Which is why, I mean, the average age of disclosure for childhood sexual abuse is 52.

I mean, by that time, people have raised a family.

They've raised, you know, they're probably having their grandkids over and such, and, you know, it's such a heavy weight to carry for the majority of your life.

And I don't want my descendants to have to live a life where they have to spend, you know, the second half of it trying to turn the first half around.

I empathize with you.

I'm sorry that you had to go through that.

How did.

How did growing up in Kentucky shape your understanding of trauma and justice, for that matter?

Because it seems to me that, you know, that's got to have a lasting effect coming from a guy that I spent a good portion of my life fighting for justice as a police officer arresting people.

I believe in the justice system, but I also see that there are some cracks in the justice system and that there are some holes and loopholes that people squeeze through in the justice system.

How did growing up in Kentucky shape your understanding of trauma and justice in general?

If I can ask?

Yeah, no, that's a great question.

And it's really important, too, because I grew up in various areas of rural Kentucky, and that's vastly different than where I live now.

I live in Louisville now.

You know, it's a much different atmosphere, much different demographics, but, you know, going from different place to different place and more rural Kentucky, I didn't have a lot of visibility into what rights I even had as a kid.

Right.

Because, you know, when you're a kid, you're just looking to your parents to guide you and to tell you what's right from wrong.

One of the things that I appreciate about the systems that we have here in Louisville, and, you know, this is having a younger daughter that I raised up three through the school system, who actually just turned 18 and is getting ready to go off to college.

But we actually spend time focusing on educating kids about what their rights to their own safety is and who to go to.

Yeah.

You know, how to disclose if those safety parameters have been violated.

And I think that that's something that's really important for us to recognize.

Recognize.

I think the other thing that belongs in that part of the conversation, too, is that there's so much intersectionality between intergenerational trauma and other harms, like poverty, for example.

You know, now I will say our current governor has done a phenomenal job of addressing barriers to education and addressing the poverty that we've had here in Kentucky.

But, you know, years before, before, that has not always been the case.

And as I was growing up, so many of the places I was in were just poverty stricken and education wasn't prioritized.

And when you don't have those examples, then you do.

It's easy to fall into those cycles of abuse, if that's all you've ever known, you know, and.

And also because the abuse itself has such a significant impact on you and your own health conditions, your own mental health and such, if you don'.

Realize that you can get treatment to that and that you can break those cycles and that there are opportunities beyond that, then that's what you carry forward in your lineage.

And, you know, that's one of my missions.

Yes, absolutely.

Breaking laws or not breaking laws, but changing laws that should be broken because, you know, they do allow the crimes to be perpetuated against children.

But even more than that, it's about breaking the chains of these generational curses that run through families.

Yeah, I think just learning about intergenerational trauma in that form just within the last couple of years.

And the more and more that I've heard it.

The more and more I start recognizing it and seeing what the ramifications of that intergenerational trauma does.

You know, my.

My mother and my grandmother and my grandfather on my mother's side, her whole family, they grew up in rural West Virginia.

So I understand that poverty.

They all lived.

It was like nine kids and a couple aunt and uncle and their kids, and they all lived in one house, you know, and I didn't learn about this until, you know, she was like, 65, 60 and 69 years old.

Between 65, 69 years old, she finally started talking about all of that and then the generational trauma that she went through in regard to, which is stuff, you know, we as kids.

She obviously didn't want to talk to her kids about it until we got older and old enough to understand a little better.

But it took her 60 years, 65 years before she couldn't even bring it up and talk about it.

Which I think.

I think if we can get the word out and we get the opportunity out that you have opportunity that you can step out of that intergenerational trauma, you have that opportunity, you have a choice that you can get away from it and to move away from it and to heal and to move forward.

And that's kind of what we're here for, you know, So I want to honor their strength by exploring what, you know, I kind of.

What came next.

I know trauma doesn't just happen in a moment.

I know this personally, I know this professionally.

It echoes, you know, can you take us into, like, an emotional landscape of those early years?

What you said earlier, you mentioned the silence, that.

What did the silence feel like?

How did it shape the way you saw yourself and the world around you?

And.

And then I'm throwing a bunch of questions at you, and then how.

How did that help you step out of that?

Yeah, absolutely.

And these are great questions.

And, you know, one of the things that I wanted to respond to real fast, and I think it's a good segue into this next part.

And when we talk about intergenerational trauma and how long people wait to talk about those things.

I saw this quote the other day that I thought, oh, my gosh, this is so spot on.

And that is if you don't confront your demons, they end up raising your children.

And that hit me hard because it's so true, you know, and granted, maybe we don't like, you know, for me, as an example, with my younger daughter, the one that just turned 18, you know, I certainly know that she didn't go through anything like I did when I was a kid.

I very much protected her from that.

You know, I was determined to give her the polar opposite experience, and I did achieve that in a lot of ways.

But there were other ways that I wasn't really, you know, my best self because I was still healing.

I think the part that is, you know, good and commendable about that experience, though, is that we were able to talk about that.

And so she was able to be honest.

You know, if, like, my tone was too harsh or I was overwhelmed and I wasn't giving her the attention that she needed or what have you, we could have those conversations, and it wasn't something I would become offended by and then, you know, end up, like, sending her on a guilt trip for communicating about her own needs.

And that pretty much segues into the experience that I had when I was a child, which was very different than that.

You know, I was physically beaten if I made simple mistakes, like dropping a carton of milk and, you know, it's spilling, you know, if I didn't have my hair a certain way, if I didn't fit into my clothes a certain way.

My mother was very perfectionistic.

I understand now that she was so consumed with how things looked on the outside because it was her way of making up for all the dysfunction on the inside.

And, you know, that's something that stayed with me.

Even when I got out of situations, I had to portray myself as, you know, having it all together.

Even when inside I was falling apart, I had to portray myself as having it all together.

And when I was a kid, I was especially easily targeted to be groomed because of that, because I didn't feel safe vocalizing, you know, what was upsetting to me or even trusting my own judgment.

When I was five and I had experienced childhood sexual abuse, and I disclosed that to my mom, she had a really harsh reaction to me, and I ended up being blamed for it at 5.

And so that made me realize that, you know, it wasn't safe to communicate things.

And also, I internalized at that point that anything bad that happened, I was the cause of it.

So, you know, all these things go into, you know, building this character where I, like, have very much carried into my life, into my adulthood, this narrative that I'll never be good enough.

And.

And, you know, my husband and I talk about this on the podcast that we launched called the Last Generation about.

We talk about, you know, relational healing, right?

And how when you're wounded in relationship with someone, which more Often than not, starts with your parents.

You can't heal in isolation.

And that's what so many of us do, because that's the only thing that's ever felt safe.

But you have to be able to have some type of trusting, loving, supportive relationship, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a significant other, but certainly is helpful, you know, if it is.

But still, to this day, as much healing as I've done, you know, I still find myself in situations where, you know, if his tone is a little too harsh or, you know, we have some situation where I feel like, you know, his attention is going elsewhere or what have you, I can get really worked up over that emotionally.

And those, you know, that inner narrative comes back that, well, I'm not good enough and I'm being rejected and I'm going to be left.

And I really have to be mindful of my healing path and being open to having real conversations when that happens.

I think that, you know, those kind of traumas shape your identity and your relationships as you come along.

And sometimes we have to learn to recognize that.

And once we recognize it, you know, we.

We have to look on how to change it and how to.

How to kind of mold it into something that's more positive.

I know it's difficult at times, but you've done it.

You do it.

You do it.

You just said here that you.

You have communication.

I think communication is key.

You have to have communication.

If you lose communication in any situation, then it's more difficult to get the.

Get the understanding back and the compassion back and the humanity back into that.

Absolutely.

And, you know, as far as communication goes as well, I think, especially for a lot of trauma survivors, we weren't modeled what healthy communication looks like.

Right.

So a lot of times we have to discover that either on our own or by observing the way that other people that, you know, seem to be at peace.

Right.

Like, what works for them.

And of course, there's various healing modalities for that as well.

But communication even can look so different for people, depending on what their experience is with it.

And sometimes, yeah, like you said, sometimes we just have to learn to recognize what communication actually is and then start moving ourself in that direction and learning how to communicate.

Do you believe that there's such a thing as an inherited pain in generational cycles?

Oh, yes.

Yes, absolutely.

How do you think we can get out of that or at least recognize it and then maybe take the steps to start removing ourselves from that?

Yeah, I think, for one thing, I think the Core is recognizing that our worth extends be beyond that.

And that that inherited pain that we experience because of the pain that our parents felt and the pain our grandparents felt and the situations that they went through that contributed to that.

All of that doesn't have to be ours to carry.

And we are worth peace.

We are worth good things in our life.

We're worth stability.

We are worth loving.

Inherently, by being humans on this planet, we are worth all those things.

I think a lot of times when we have experienced, you know, especially chronic emotional pain, chronic physical abuse, you know, childhood sexual abuse, we internalize our value as being nothing.

And we look for affection and affirmation from sources that are not good for us, that are toxic, because that's all that we've ever known.

And getting to the point, point that we realize that love and value and trust and, you know, all of the things that we want to achieve in life are not just meant for others.

They are meant for us as well.

Then our accountability for seizing opportunities to bring that into our lives, that's where that starts.

And I think a lot of times people get really caught up in thinking that things are out of reach for them.

And I understand that there are hurdles after hurdles between where you are and where you want to be.

But the key is never giving up.

No matter what the adversity is, no matter what the barriers are, if one door will not open for you, then you can find a cracked window somewhere else.

And the point is to keep going and keep looking for those opportunities and looking for people that believe in you as much as you need to believe in yourself.

You know, that's.

It's.

It's powerful to hear how those, you know, experiences deeply shaped you and then how you carry that truth into your work now.

And what you're saying, the words that you're saying, obviously have meaning in regard to.

We have a voice.

Yes, we have a community.

We just have to find our voice and find our community.

And once we find both of those, it can allow us a healing opportunity to be able to move forward.

And honestly, what's even more remarkable is that you didn't stay in that place.

You chose to speak.

And you do have a voice.

And you did it through verbally, you did it in writing, and you decided to fight, fight the system.

And I think you've made strides in fighting the system.

Can we shift maybe a moment into, like, awakening when you realize your story could spark change not just for you, but for others?

Kind of what lit that fire?

Because you've created a Podcast.

It's a conversation you created, you wrote the book, you work with legislation.

I saw on your website there's a nice message on there that talks about how, you know, you made change in the state and at least in Kentucky and little areas around from you.

So what lit that fire?

Yeah, that's a great question.

So my daughter, again, my 18 year old back a few years ago, I recognized that she was getting really involved in things that spoke about women's rights.

Like, you know, she's eight years old, she had to do her women's history project and so she chose Malala.

And Malala, of course, you know, fought for women's rights to education in Afghanistan and suffered horrible consequences because of it, but she continued fighting.

And Willow, you know, my, my daughter was incredibly inspired by that story.

And I think it's also because of the candid conversations that we had had about, you know, some early life struggles that I had had as well.

And seeing that in her, seeing that inspiration in her and, you know, right down to going to a United nations event and taking her with me and the person running the event asking her, oh, do you want to get up and, you know, talk about your report or whatever.

And she did, totally impromptu to like, I thought this lady was kidding, but no, they gave her like five minutes, impromptu for, you know, this little eight year old girl to get up on the stage and talk about why women's education is so important.

And so these were things I was already feeling this stirring, already feeling like I had spent so much of my life trying to turn myself into the polar opposite than what I had grown up with and what my initial start into independence was going to be.

But I had such silence, you know, I couldn't even answer a question of, well, where did you graduate high school without feeling retraumatized and like I was worthless?

Because how do you tell someone, well, actually, I didn't even complete 10th grade, right, because I had to get my GED and then I had to put myself through school, all while raising a young kid.

So to be able to see that, you know, I had obviously had some positive influence on my kid for her to, you know, be as independent as she was and, you know, an independent thinker and really concerned about humanitarianism.

And so at that point I realized that I could start speaking about the experiences that I had and hopefully start creating change.

And I started reaching out to organizations I knew were working on issues of child marriage.

I really got angry, you know, thinking about everything that I had gone through, really having that Realization that instead of being handed a license to continue abusing me, my perpetrator should have been roped up in a pair of handcuffs.

But instead, the opposite happened.

And so, like, letting that anger fuel me, not to be destructive, but productive, that's where that transformation happened.

And then it was like, you know, as happens, I think a lot of times when you're on a positive spiritual path, it's like all of a sudden all these doors just start opening, and you have all these opportunities that lead to other opportunities.

And so it was just a matter of seizing all of those.

And, you know, I.

Again, you know, one of the most liberating things for me was throwing the shame off and putting it back in the hands of the predator.

And so, you know, through my work, that's very much what I do and what I reinforce for survivors and also fostering that sense of community, because survivors such as myself had to spend so much time in isolation.

Having a community with each other and having a community that is focused on making things better for our descendants, that is incredibly healing as well.

That's.

That's.

Yes, you have the right fire.

Speaking of fire, what.

What.

I mean, what inspired you to write Ashes to Flame?

You mentioned earlier that congratulations on your ged.

You should be proud of that.

That's an accomplishment in itself.

You put yourself back through that.

You made the choice, your concerted choice, and that's a positive thing.

You know, the high school sometimes overrated.

So you got it.

It works.

So what inspired you to write Ashes to Flame?

An advocate for legal reform.

Yeah, so I started advocating back in 2018, 2016, really.

But I really got heavy, heavily involved in 2018, like, literally traveling the country, state by state, talking with legislators, giving testimony before legislative bodies and such.

I'm giving tons of interviews.

I was in a documentary that was hosted by A E called I Was a Child Bride, and my story is featured there as well.

And so after having that experience and, you know, while all of that advocacy was happening, I was simultaneously doing a lot of journaling.

And when I met my now husband, we've been together for about three years, and I started having these kind of conversations with him.

He's like, you gotta write a book.

And I'm like, well, you know, I've got about 10 years worth of material already, so.

But that was one of his, you know, big pieces of encouragement as well as other people need to hear this.

You know, people need to hear that they're not alone.

And people need to hear that they can take the worst pain Imaginable and turn it into something that is protective for other people.

That's how we start breaking this generational cycles.

Very cool.

And the fact that you, you have an individual that supports you in that way, I'm happy for you.

That's, that's cool because it's always nice to have somebody in your corner like that.

So very cool.

I'm sure that required strength, especially to fight for justice in the face of resistance.

You know, it's.

As you said, the laws don't heal people.

They protect, they prevent.

But healing is something that goes a little bit deeper.

And I know that you helped, we mentioned it earlier, you had helped with legal child marriage in Kentucky and getting that law changed.

What they think is like, phenomenal.

Hopefully there'll be more that follow.

Forgive me, I don't remember if you said you also got it changed in Tennessee and Tennessee as well.

Tennessee and Indiana.

And Indiana.

All three of them.

So, you know, outstanding.

I mean, an individual that obviously fights.

I spent 17 years fighting for justice, so I respect that and thank you for taking those steps in order to get that change put into place.

Hopefully we can move it forward with every state that needs to.

It's amazing.

It blows me away that in reality, what did you say there was something like only 15 states that don't have it.

Yes.

Well, 15 states that outlaw child marriage across the board, meaning, like age 18 and up is, you know, the only option.

Even in the states where, you know, I was able to get some change, we improved things.

Like in Kentucky, Indiana, Tennessee, we set the minimum age through at 17, did away with parental consent, has to go before, before a judge, you know, all this.

But it's still not that better state of age 18.

And the reason that that part's so important is because you can't legally enter into a contract.

Yeah.

Until you're 18, meaning you can't rent your own apartment.

You can't even file for your own divorce.

Right.

You can't even consent to your own child's medical care or your own.

And so, you know, these are all harms and barriers to a minor having protection if it happens before they reach the age of majority.

So that's why I do continue to fight, including still in Kentucky, to get the minimum age phrase to 18.

So it's only legal adults that are marrying.

Yeah, I agree with you.

I say as.

Look, I like I have to laugh because my kids will tell you that every time they were afraid to bring a guy home if they were going to go out on a date because it would be the, you know, the cop come out of me.

And, you know, it's like, okay, I want this and I want you not to do that and not do this and be home by this time.

I love that.

Yeah, they kind of even had friends of mine and their godfather actually, you know, would they be on patrol and they'd see Caitlyn out with a date or Nicole, and.

And they'd kind of get the car next to the guy and just kind of look, it's like, dad, can you please tell Uncle John to stop doing that?

I said, we're just trying to protect you.

That's all.

We're just trying to protect you.

Just.

Just a little.

A little humor.

You move from surviving to truly living.

And I think that obviously laws alone.

I think we need a mindset.

Your journey from trauma to purpose is a roadmap for so many people.

And through your podcast and your writing and your advocacy, you become a guide for others who are still in the dark.

I've listened to your podcast.

I think it's a great opportunity for individuals to understand the.

They're not alone.

And that if they're going through something, it doesn't necessarily have to be exactly what you have gone through.

What you've shown, at least in my opinion, is that you give opportunity for them to understand that you can rise from the ashes, you can rise again, you can overcome, and that you can just.

You have to understand the confidence and the community and the resources that you have have in order to do that.

In Ashes to Flame, you talk about rewriting your legacy.

What does that mean for survivors?

And how.

How can we recognize it if we need to go into that mode of survival?

Yeah.

So rewriting your legacy is basically saying that you are going to take control of your life and not have your.

Your parents and your grandparents experiences be left out through you.

And that is how we break those generational cycles of pain, and that's how we end up planting those seeds.

And, you know, one of the things that I love to equate it to is, you know, when you plant seeds for a tree.

Right.

That tree may take years to really take root and start bearing fruit.

So there's a poem that talks about planting seeds for a tree that you will never receive the shade from.

You're not necessarily going to get the great benefit from that in your lifetime, but your kids and their kids will.

It takes so much time for things to heal, but if you take those first steps, if you start changing the way you treat yourself, you're going to start changing the way that you treat others people for the better.

And if you start having those open conversations with people and really honoring any and all emotions that come up, using them to be propellants of change, like anger.

You know, just as one example, we attach such a negative stigma to the emotion of anger, but it can be one of the most powerful emotions and clearing space for positive change.

And so when we start leaning into that, that is really how we start rewriting those legacies and making things different, creating a different landscape for our children and grandchildren to be able to seize.

And that's profound.

I think that we all have that opportunity.

I wish I could talk to you for a whole another hour.

We could, we could really dive deep into this, but unfortunately we have to kind of close it a little bit here.

But as we begin that close, I always say there's always one more thing, right?

One more thing before we go.

So before we go, what would you say to someone who's stuck in silence?

You kind of just mentioned it.

But what would be the first step to somebody who hasn't found, found their flame like you found and kind of not to be the last generation, like your podcast says, to make sure it doesn't go past us to stop that intergenerational trauma, to kind of move forward.

Yeah.

So I think there comes a time in all of our lives where we ask ourselves, what's our purpose?

Right.

What's our purpose in being on this planet?

And, you know, what is it that we're going to do with our life, however many years is left of that.

And I would say that for somebody looking to find their purpose, looking to really ignite their own flame, you've got to lean into your pain because your pain is so powerful.

And it can be what holds you back or it can be what sends you soaring.

Lean into that pain, recognize it, name it, seek help for it.

Find a community that's going to support you in the process of navigating it and watch how that transforms and watch how that becomes the purpose filled life that you've been looking to create.

Brilliant words of wisdom, Donna.

Let's tell everybody how they get in touch with you.

You have a course, you have some other resources, you have a book and you have your podcast that we just talked about.

How do we get in touch with you and what can we find on your website?

Yeah.

So folks can visit my website at traumatopurpose.com or email me at donna traumatopurpose.com as far as getting in touch goes.

And then we do have some digital course materials that are self paced, one of which I'm extremely, extremely excited about.

We've recently launched it and we've already had a lot of really great feedback from folks that have gone through it.

It's called the Trust Blueprint and it is on relational healing.

So it talks about how to navigate healing and relationships and, you know, push through trust issues and such when you've experienced betrayal before.

So, really excited for that.

And of course, course, my book is Ashes to Flame, Transforming Trauma into Purpose.

It is available, the ebook is available on my website, traumatopurpose.com but then it's also on Amazon and hardback paperback copies as well as audiobook.

I did narrate my own audiobook, so that's available on Audible, which can be accessed through Amazon as well.

And then finally, the Last Generation podcast.

That is a relatively new launch and we just launched it back in June, and I record every other week.

So we have about seven episodes out there right now.

And we really tackle the issues that a lot of people are afraid to talk about.

And it is very much focused on how we can be the best partners we can be, how we can be the best parents, and how to get real in our healing journey.

So that podcast is certainly night.

And for anyone wanting to focus on surface level, we do take things very deep.

But that is how we become the last generation of trauma.

So thank you.

That's amazing.

I'll make sure that all of that is in the show notes so that they have an easy way to connect with you and just by pressing a button.

Great.

Thank you.

Yeah, Donna, thank you very much.

You know, you remind us that healing isn't quiet, it's futile.

Trauma doesn't define us.

It dares us to rise.

And that rewriting your legacy isn't just possible, it's necessary.

Your story is a flame, one that lights the path for others to walk through darkness and in truth.

And a reminder to everyone in the community, sometimes the most powerful transformation begins with just one more thing before you go.

So thank you very much for sharing your journey, your experience, your wisdom.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much, Michael.

It's such a pleasure to be a guest on your show and I appreciate all of your thoughtful questions and what a fierce advocate you are as well.

Thank you very much.

I really appreciate you and what you do for the world.

Absolutely.

I appreciate you as well.

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