The Soul of Irish Traditional Music with Tara Connaghan

Hey, one more Thing before you go. There are places in the world where words aren't the first language, where belonging isn't spoken but felt.Irish traditional music sessions are one of those places. Communal, emotional, and alive.But beneath the music lies something deeper, the quiet rules that shape who we are allowed to be, how we enter a space, and what it means to belong.Today, we're going to explore how culture teaches us to listen, how anxiety hides in the pauses, and how music, in all of its universality, reveals the stories we don't know how to say out loud. I'm your host, Michael Hirsch. Welcome to One more thing before you go. Today we are asking two guiding questions.How do we learn to belong in an unfamiliar world? And what can music teach us about the unspoken stories beneath human connection?Our guest is someone who lives at the intersection of culture, identity, and sound.Tara Conahan is a professional Irish traditional fiddler and a podcaster whose work explores how people navigate the quiet rules of social spaces, especially the emotionally charged world of Irish music sessions. And I'm excited to have this conversation. Welcome to show Tara.

Hello, Michael. How are you?

I'm doing outstanding. It is a beautiful day here. It's not too hot in Arizona. We just had a hot spell. It's a little cooler this morning, so. Yeah, I'm good.How about yourself?

I think it's raining outside. Yeah.

Well, if you could send that a little bit our way, that would be appreciative and it could help you and help us see.

Exactly. Well, that's why it's always green here, because there's lots of rain.

That's my favorite color, green. So I think that it would work for me. It would work for me. One of these days, I'm going to get back to Ireland. I'm going to go see Ireland.I'm going to go visit it. I'm going to enjoy it. I'm going to get into some old family roots and stuff. So I'll look forward to the green.

Brilliant. Come and visit.

Well, I always like to kind of start at the beginning a little bit. So I know that you're from Ireland. Obviously, you're born, raised in Ireland. Right.Tell us a little bit about your family and your history and how that got you into the traditional Irish music.

That's a good question. I think I liked music from a young age. It just, you know, people. There are people who kind of gravitate towards it and kind of they feel the music.Actually, Irish dancing was where I came about music first. So a lot of young Girls, especially young girls that would be now my age, around the 50 mark. We all kind of did Irish dancing as young girls.And all the boys play, all the boys would play football and that would be Irish football, the Gaelic football or hurling. So I would have heard the music when I was dancing to it. And it was said that I had good rhythm. So I love the rhythm.I just, you know, you could feel the music and. And then I started to play, I think it was the guitar.And my sister, who was a year younger than me, started playing the, the fiddle and then I started playing the flute, the classical flute and the, the classical piano as well. So I did all the grades and those.But when I was about, well, my, actually my season, my sister used to teach me a little bit of the fiddle as she was learning it, and I would teach her a bit of the guitar. You know, we kind of swap over what we had kind of done that week in the class. And that was when I was about 9, 10, when I was 11, my.My sister, who was a year younger than me, passed away from. She had, she had had a heart condition from birth and she went into an operation and sadly didn't come out of it.And so I suppose that was a bit of a traumatic experience for my parents mostly. I think, I think as a, as an 11 year old, you know, you just don't see the bigger picture. It's just. Yeah, it was sad, but it was, it was.The sad thing, I think for, for being a kid was watching your parents live through it because they're almost not your parents at that time. You know, when they're going through that phase, they're almost not your parents. Grief.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry that that happened.

Yeah.

Grief is, Grief is a. Grief is an ugly monster sometimes. And I definitely understand it. My parents, I lost a brother the same way. Very, very, very young age. So I understand that.I understand that perspective of it. It's very hard on the parents because obviously you know, you lose that. But did you find kind of solace in music from that point on?

I guess I did, maybe. Or maybe I didn't even think about it that way. I actually found that I needed to escape. When I was about 17, 18, I went to.I kind of went as far away as I could just, you know, because being at home was kind of a bit painful, so just kind of get away.Sorry, this is kind of emotional, but about a year after my sick sister passed away, the fiddle teacher, who is a lovely man, and he asked my Mother, he really needed some three quarter size fiddles for the next batch of students, the younger students and my mother, we had one from my sister and he asked if she would sell it. And then I think he kind of maybe felt guilty and said, or, you know, maybe Tara would like to play it or something. But he didn't want it.To see it going to waste is maybe what he was more thinking of. So she then said, oh, well, I'll ask Tara because I'm, you know, she really did not want to sell it. So she asked me.And at that stage I was playing the guitar, the piano and the flute. And so I said, sure. What's another instrument

all the way around? I mean, obviously.Well, I think once you get into something like that, it's only natural to kind of experiment with other instruments to find out what resonates with you and, you know, what feels good to the soul.

Yeah, and I started with the, all the, you know, the Suzuki method and you know, so the Twinkle Twinkle and the Lightly Robot. Actually my sister had taught me those.So I was just like, you know, if we don't move on quickly, I think after about two weeks I was like, if we're not moving on to something else, I'm out of here. And I said, even give me Irish music. Anything, just not this.So we started playing a few Irish tunes or he started teaching me a few Irish tunes and then I kind of picked those up pretty quickly. And he then moved me into the next class above to the more advanced students.One of my best friends from school was in that class and I really think school friends or friends, what keeps you going as well?So there was kind of then a bit of, you know, natural banter and a little bit of natural competition, you know, not, not very competitive, but just natural friendship and you know, egging each other on and boosting each other on. So yeah, we, I loved it and. But I was very lazy.And around the age of 16, the other, the other girl, Denise is her name, fiddle player as well, great fiddle player. And her dad, Johnny, who's alive and well today, he's a great man.He used to run the hotel here in Glentys and he would take us to festivals and to sessions and he was very well respected. You know, people would love to see him coming, that. He'd love to. They'd love to see him coming with the two of us with the fiddles as well.So we'd play a few tunes and.But there was one festival, it was at Easter weekend with some of the members of Alton, which is a very well respected Irish traditional music group who are from the same areas we are from in Donegal and they were doing a teaching workshop and we went to the workshops and I mean, I was hooked. That was it for me. It was like, oh my God, this, look at how much fun they're all having.I was like, oh yeah, I could do this for the rest of my life. So I, I just thought, yeah. And I went back to the music teacher and I said, I really want to learn this tune. And I gave him the, the name of a tune.It was actually a. Is it a Cape Breton tune? It's called Brenda Stubbarts. It was one of, from an Alton album years ago. And, and so he knew, he could see I was hooked.I mean I, because I was, I, you know, I didn't shut up the whole class. I was like, oh my God, I was so good. It was so, so, so he knew I was hooked. And the following week he still didn't give me the tune.And the week after, my friend Denise was playing the tune and I was like, Denise, where did you get the tune? And she said, oh, Seamus gave it to me. As in the music teacher gave it to me last week. Did she, did he not give it to you? And I was like, no.What, what do you mean? So I went over, I marched over, you know, my little 16 year old, Tara, why did you not give it to me? Why did I not get the tune?I said, tara, because you don't practice when you practice, I'll give you the tune. So, and I was really upset for like two weeks and I didn't go back to class for two weeks.And I, in that two weeks I put on, I suppose necessity is the mother of invention. I had a hi fi system and I had a CD player and I put the CD on and I put a blaring blast and really, really loud.So loud that my mother was in the kitchen below the bedroom and she would bang the, the broom above on the ceiling and shout up. You think you'd do something good like practice, practice your piano. So that would make me actually practice the fiddle even more.So I would, I was playing along to the cd and it was great because it was, it was almost like I was recreating a music session in my bedroom and it was making me more comfortable playing it.I was then picking it up as we were going along and, and I just kind of picked up so that two weeks later I went to the class and I had already picked up the tune, he gave it to me. I said, it's okay, I've already picked it up. And I just thought in those two weeks, let nobody ever say to me again that, you know, that you're not.You're not doing it, you're not practicing. I just thought, no one's going to say that to me again, so well done.

Well, then, take that, Seamus.

And Seamus is a lovely, lovely man. Oh, no, good on Seamus. Fair play to him. Because I needed the kick up the bum and I think he knew I needed it.

So give it a little extra nudge in the right direction. I think sometimes we all need that. Yes, we do. Yeah, I know that Irish tradition. Give us a little. Let's talk a little history, if you don't mind.I was. Traditional music is not just an art form, but it's a way of understanding people and kind of a communication thing that my kids grew up.We all grew up with. My girls were in the dance and my girls had. They got into Irish dancing as well.The school they went to, the elementary school and the junior high they went to, it was kind of. They had the same teacher over several classes in regard to that. And one of them, she was like a brilliant.And she did Irish dancing, she taught Irish dancing. Well, that got the kids more interested, obviously, a little bit deeper level.So we started learning a little bit about the history of Irish dancing and a little bit about the music. But I think music has got a deeper connection, does it not? Or is it kind of equal?

Well, I mean, I would always think of the music as a dance music. You know, it has a function as a dance music, but it also has a function that, like, the song is there as well.So I suppose the song maybe came first and then it would be kind of transferred into the. The melodies. But I think, you know, you could. You could dance for. For the. The songs as well, you know, so. Which chicken and egg. Which came first?

Yes. You know, I think personally, like the stuff that I've learned and stuff that I enjoy myself as well. And in regards to, I think that any.Whether it be dance or music and art, even art, you know, if you're watching art being created or something be created, I think it said it is a universal language in all aspects of it. I think that.And a lot of it intermingles within itself and they're all interconnected because the creative arts allow us as human beings to be able to connect on different levels that we normally wouldn't be able to connect on or that we don't quite understand how to connect. No matter what culture we come from, we can understand music and storytelling from a music perspective, which I appreciate from what you do.I've listened to several of your sessions in your fiddle playing, and I think that you understand. And obviously, I think it's a little subjective as well as objective.A little subjective because each person can get something out of the music that fits them from that which I appreciate. You describe sessions as a communal, emotionally charged space. What makes them so unique compared to other musical environments?For example, you selected the fiddle, but you can play the guitar, you can play the piano. Why the fiddle in particular?

I think it was the one that I could. It's the one that just. That I could play, you know, that just worked. Although the guitar. I do.I did love the guitar when I was younger, and I was pretty good at it. And then when I really got into the Irish music, I just wanted to play the melodies, and I couldn't get enough. I just wanted more and more melodies.It was just. I couldn't be enough of melodies. And so, yeah, the guitar was just. It was just two in the background.I just want to, you know, just to be in the core of it, in the thick of it. So, yeah.

Do you think. I mean, from a perspective of looking at. In comparison with Irish music, I've listened to a lot of it myself.I told you, my stepfather was an Irish tenor.

He.

And he really took that to a level because I could listen to him. We could listen to him sing in different events and so forth, and it was all Irish music in regard to that.So I got the benefit and the pleasure of listening to a variety of it. Do you think, how does that compare to, let's say, American folk music is kind of similar, like, folk kind of music?

Well, I mean, I think every music and every music session has its own etiquette, so its own kind of communal.So I mean, I can only speak for Irish music because I. I don't really play anything else, But I do know that there are, you know, there's definitely etiquette to even join in orchestras or etiquette to join in jam sessions.And even though people think, oh, they're just anybody can join, but actually, when you dig down deeper, there'll always be something like, oh, I wouldn't have done that. And if you're a kid growing up in that environment, the elders will be able to tell you and say, oh, no, you know, wait there now.Wait your turn, or wait, you know. But as an.As an adult, Coming into that space as a newcomer, it's very hard to say, maybe just wait a little minute because it just sounds so wrong to be saying that to your peers, you know, as an, an adult peer rather than a, a music skill peer. So it's just really difficult.

Well, I think that that comes with like a belong. Everybody wants to belong. Everybody wants to belong, especially if they, if they see something or hear something.You know, we want to participate, we want to get involved with it. It resonates with us to a point at least from my perspective.It resonates with the point that, hey, I would love to do that, I would love to get in the middle of that. I want to jump into the middle of that.But I think that, like you just mentioned, I think that we sometimes would have to take a pause and listen and just enjoy listening. And then in how it's presented, whether or not I fit with that environment, whether or not I should be on this side of it or, or this side of it.From your perspective, what does listening mean in Irish music culture?

I think listening means also being aware as well, being aware of yourself and being aware of those around you and just maybe also having that listening done beforehand as well. Because it, you know, if you just go in and you've, you know, Irish, that's the first Irish music session you've ever been to.You say, but sure, I'll join it anyway be, you know, better if you kind of listened a bit beforehand and knew the music a little bit beforehand as well. So it's the same as, as me going to a, like a, an old timey session.I mean the music is fabulous, but I'm not going to jump in because I just don't know enough about it. So I think it's a bit about being self aware, reading the room and just kind of people say what is reading the room?And it's a really hard thing to even break down into what is reading the room.Yeah, you're kind of just, yeah, you're watching, you know, what's, what, what's going on and you know, and who, who is, who is communicating with, with each other. And I think it's always fascinating to just be a people watcher first or a session watcher.I think actually I might, I might coin that term a session watcher.

Session watcher. You got it. You. Yeah, and you have it on record right here. You, it's yours, you own it.

I'm gonna write this one down actually.

Well, you know, it is, I mean, as similar as like, look I, I, I, I watch Mick Jagger or any number of other, but I would never jump up on stage with Mick Jagger. I'll sing along in the car, I'll sing along in the living room.But, you know, I get up, and if he says, hey, come on up, I'd be like, no, I don't fit up there. Thank you very much. But I'll sit back here and listen and enjoy. You know, music communicates long before anyone speaks.How do you see music functioning as a universal language as we spoke about earlier? Only from what I've learned and what I feel. I feel that it is a universal language in regard to, you know, as storytelling.I mean, every, every music, no matter where it's played or how it's played, and from every culture, I believe that music is storytelling.In storytelling, from who you lost, who you love, who you're angry at, the whole gamut of everything, it shows emotion, it shows feeling, it shows, you know, wanting, needing and belonging to. So how do you see music functioning as a universal language? Maybe. Can I get your perspective on that?Yeah, I mean, can I add something to it real quick? I'm sorry. Especially in spaces where, like, people are anxious or unsure, like we just talked about.I can go to a concert and I would love being at the concert, but there's no way I can jump up in the middle of that concert up on stage. But, but I love looking at it from this perspective, or I can resonate from this perspective.

I think maybe the bit before. The universal language of music is the universal language of people on a communal space. So I don't think it's actually the music that is.

You think it.

I think it's the people. You know, it's the people. It's the social side of it first. Because it's not just the music that has kind of like, put the barriers up or whatever.It's more kind of a let's respect the people who are doing something that is, you know, existed before you've come to that space. So that's kind of where I kind of come from. So there's the, the social. Yeah, that, that's right.

And I would agree with that. I think that's why we all go to. We all go to a concert. We all go to listen to music.We all go to, you know, a bar or a patio or a park and want to be able to participate in it together. You know, it's not like an audience of one, it's an audience of many.

Yeah, yeah.

So I totally, I agree with that. When did you first notice that the real story wasn't just the music but the unspoken rules around it?

Oh, I think maybe I was. You know, you're kind of told something at an early age.Oh, maybe wait your turn there for a little second or hold off for, you know, a minute or two or just wait your turn or, you know, maybe don't sit in this one. So there's all that kind of. You're, you're told that as a. As a younger person.And then I noticed that it was much harder to show people that or maybe be as kind to people when they're older. You know, when you're an adult coming in from that space.So it's just a lot harder then they don't get told that as a youngster because they weren't in it. Maybe as a youngster, so. So it's a lot more difficult.

How does that play into. I think you talk about quiet rules and unspoken norms that shape behavior. What are some of the rules in Irish sessions?Help me understand what Irish sessions means? I had to say that slow so I didn't get tongue twisted.

Well, an Irish music session is usually a place where. Where they play Irish traditional music. So it's a split. It's a. I mean, it's normally.Well, actually there's loads of different types of Irish music sessions. So there's the one where. And this is the one that I would be most familiar with because that's the kind of one that we have here where we have.Maybe we'll text a friend who's a musician and we'll say, oh, do you fancy a few tunes? So it's like kind of an arrangement. It's almost like an arrangement to meet for a coffee, but it's in a pub and. Yeah, so it's more.But I will have it. We'll play a few bits of music while we're there or, you know, so it's very loose.It's about friendship and it's about, you know, sharing something that, you know, you know, it's almost. It is almost like a conversation, like a musical conversation. And then there's kind of the.The ones that are put on for maybe the tourists or, you know, that are more like they're set at a certain time. So it's definitely going to happen at 8 o' clock or it's definitely going to happen at 10 o'. Clock.And so there, there's a little bit more pressure on those ones, I think, because, you know, there's. There's maybe Payment so that maybe the, the venue has given you payment to be there.And so you kind of feel not too much pressure sometimes, but, you know, maybe a little bit of pressure that, okay, well, these guys, you know, are paying us money. They're probably not taking in a lot of money, especially in the small rural fubs.So you're like, well, we want to make sure that, you know, they're getting value for worth, you know, value for their money. So we play and play and, and if anybody comes in, we'll ask them to play and we'll ask them, do they sing? Then there's the other ones that are.Maybe the venue has asked for them to play with microphones. So that might be the, the one that, you know, that it would be like a semi concert, you know, semi formal, but it's not quite a concert.Kind of somewhere between a concert and a session. So it's like a formal performance of a session and they're being paid to play.So that's definitely a one where you kind of don't really join in, but the other two are kind of ones that maybe you could join in.The first one where it's just friends who've texted each other, that's kind of, you know, it's almost like you're joining a group, you know, that are sitting around having drinks together.

Almost like a jam session. I love musical. Musical conversation. That's a brilliant. That's brilliant, actually.And here, it's like a jam session here where my friends and I used to get together and somebody pick up a guitar. My brother would do it, or I used to play guitar. I don't do it anymore. It's been a really, really long time because of my arthritis.But, you know, you'd pick it up and you just start playing and you know, that kind of thing. So, yeah, musical conversation. That's brilliant.

Yeah, it is. A lot of people say, you know, I can't, I can't claim ownership of that one. It's been around the block for a while.When people are trying to describe the etiquette and they say, if you wouldn't do it in a conversation, don't do it in a, in a session.

Yeah, that works. Why do you think capable people, talented people struggle in these kind of environments?

I mean, that's, that's the real thing. That's the real difficulty because some of them could be so, you know, they're so good at their jobs and really, really well respected.And then it's like a new, total new environment. They just struggle to read the room. And maybe there's an element of.I suppose maybe people who are so good at what they do, maybe there's an element of. On the spectrum of autism, possibly. So they're maybe really good at focusing on certain things, but maybe not so good at social side of things.Now that's me just throwing that out. That could be totally wrong. But I'm just trying to, you know, and maybe it's. It's definitely because they haven't grown up in it.That's the main reason, I think, you know, they just haven't been the kid. They haven't been allowed that space where they can be the beginner as a child, where the elder can go, wait your turn, hold on, don't play yet.And that's the main reason as well,

because I think anxiety shows up. I mean, in any environment, anxiety shows up and anxiety plays a factor. You know, my wife hates crowds and she gets very.She gets just walking in a crowd. We go to Costco, you know, huge shopping center, Costco.And especially if you go on a weekend and there's so many people in there, my wife gets anxiety even before we walk in the door, just with the anticipation of what's going to happen. I think a lot of people do that before they go in and play too.

Totally.

So, yeah, I agree.

I think the anxiety shows up because they're unsure of their environment.

Right.

In a session anyway, you know, there are just maybe elements that they're not. Not sure of. One of them might be, am I good enough to be here? You know, should I be playing yet? Should I be joining this session?Are the musicians too good for. For me to join? And that's a very valid question. Do I know enough tunes yet?I might be sitting here with my instrument on my knee for maybe the whole night. I might only play one tune and I might look silly and people might think I should more, more.And that, you know, there's the whole imposter syndrome as well. I don't know enough. And they just lead to anxiety.And as you say, also before you even come in the door, then you're kind of revisiting those thoughts, going, I'm going to be like this or am I going to be like that? Am I going to be embarrassed? I'm just going to be sitting there embarrassed, Am I?

Yeah, no, I. Yeah, I think that happens to us. All that stuff runs through our minds. And, you know, we always.We have to make the choice as to whether or not we're going to take the Step out of that anxiety realm. To step up and do that or to play. Because sometimes we don't always think that I'm. Well, we all have gone there. I'm not good enough.I can't do this or I can't do that, or people can think I'm stupid, or what am I doing up there? What's that guy doing up there? Kind of a thing. So. So, yeah, I understand that. It's. It's. I think that's. How does that play into cultural signals?Maybe somebody might misread. Do you think there's. There's a cultural aspect of it that definitely as well?

Yeah, there's definitely a cultural side of things as well, because, you know, maybe in other sessions or other musics, people would be kind of a little bit more. Okay, they're a bit more kind of direct. We're so indirect here in Ireland. We're so subtle and nuanced.And the number one thing is that you would hate to think that you've offended somebody. Usually that's. Now, that's not to say that people don't.And look, I think the reason I've started the podcast is because I have probably offended people in some days at sessions, and I feel really guilty about it. And, you know, you think you're trying to be as nice as possible, and somebody takes it really badly because I think they take it really personally.You know, if a person is in.An adult has put themselves into that space, they have invested so much in the classes, and, you know, they've really invested in personal development in this. And then somebody goes and says, you know, what are you doing there? Or could you sit out for a moment?I mean, that's the most horrible thing to say, and it's the most horrible thing to receive as an adult. It's just awful.

Well, it's not like karaoke. Somebody goes to a karaoke bar and everybody's expecting somebody to get up there.And it doesn't really matter from that perspective, but I think from an environment where you go in and join a group of individuals that are there, too, to have a musical conversation that you don't want to kind of throw a wrench into that.You feel that you don't want to throw a wrench into that by going up there and not being able to accomplish what you need to do or hitting the sour notes, that would be my fear. It's like, nah, I can't keep up with him or her, and it's me that you can hear the twing, not the Outside the twang, you know, and

most of the time, if it's very quiet, people don't mind. You know, we all had. We all had to learn as well.But I think it's when maybe it becomes too much or when it's constant all the time, where maybe the skilled musicians can't really get to play at the level that they. That they really want to. The odd time or maybe a lot of the time, you know, that that's when there's kind of a bit of a.Can be a little bit, that the. The plates will shift a little bit. Yeah, that is.

And I agree. My kids grew up in the. They grew up with dance from age three. I got two girls, we have two girls.And they grew up from age three on up through dance and through music and through performance and through stage work and work, you know, doing in plays and things like this. And we grew up with. My stepfather was their grandfather. My father died at a very young age. So they knew Burl as grandpa, period, kind of a thing.So we went to, you know, Burl stuff too.And you know, Burle used to always say listening is a form of respect, you know, and you know, they were taught that to each time they had performances too. Don't talk in a performance.Don't, you know, you get up if you're in the audience, don't be having a conversation kind of thing to the person next to you while they're performing. Because you need to have some respect, you need to listen, you need to pay attention kind of thing. How does that play out in real time?Because obviously as a performer, I've been up on that stage before and you have these people out here making noise and talking and this kind of stuff that are just listening or appreciating or trying to learning and you know, you kind of get like, like you want to stop and go, hey, you, hey, stop now. That was the cop. Maybe that was the cop coming out at me.

But yeah, yeah, like, it drives me insane if I'm on stage and somebody. Or even if I'm sitting in the audience and somebody.Somebody does, you know, is talking and I'm like, you know that if that person on stage can hear you, then they're focusing on. They can't be in flow. Yeah, it's like when you are. When you're in flow, you're in a kind of peripheral vision state. You're kind of, you're.You're like a transcendent into some other space.If you're focusing on like as it's this is why sometimes learners and newcomers to music can't get into the same flow is because they're not at the skill level to be able to let go of and then, and go into the muscle memory state where you're just in the flow. So when you're in the flow on stage or even in a session, it's, you know, you're great.You're not even aware of the things around you until somebody does something, you know, and it's, you know.So sometimes if it's low level conversation, it's fine, but if somebody's sitting right beside the session and they're really loud, then you're actually taking your focus away from being in flow and you're focusing on the thing you don't want to

focus on the wrong conversation.

And if you're on stage. Oh yeah.I find if I'm on stage now, especially if I'm playing solo, if somebody is, is doing a solo performance on stage, even like an actor doing a monologue.And that's why in theaters they, you know, they don't allow people in and out of the, during, during the performance because it takes the attention away from the, the person needs to be in flow to give their best performance ever. And if they can't be in flow, then they are focused on, on the, the door opening.They're focusing on the something, you know, the conversation or the mobile phone that goes off. Whereas look, in sessions we don't really mind the mobile phone. But if you're at a concert and

a mobile phone goes off, or is it even Broadway? Oh, I'm sorry. I watched an actor on Broadway who literally famous. I can't remember who it was. Famous female actor on Broadway.Somebody, somebody was out, their phone rang and she walked off stage, went down and answered the phone and said, we're in the middle of a Broadway show. Call back later, thank you, and handed the phone back to the guy, said turn it off and got back on stage.

Yeah. And that probably it completely put, put that person off their flow. And that's all we really want.Because when you're in flow, that's when you have the magic of an Irish music session and you just. That's. That is fabulous.

Yeah, I've listened to it myself.I've not been been to one in person from that perspective, but I do listen to Irish music and I've got some CDs that are, that are a lot of Irish music. So yeah, you get in the middle of it, it enthralls you. It Kind of draws you in.And even from that perspective, it kind of gives me a feeling of belonging. I told you, I've got Irish in my background, in my genealogy, so it gives me a little bit of belonging. And I think that music reveals, like.Can reveal to us how we belong. Right?

Mm. Yeah. I love that. That's lovely. I haven't thought about that too much before. That's really nice.

Yeah, thank you. I think. Yeah. I think we. And we all want to belong. Everybody wants to belong. We want to belong to something.And if we can embrace a culture, embrace a music embase, embrace a song, embrace something, I think that kind of works.

Yeah. Because, I mean, I think a lot of people did go away. You know, the diaspora is so huge.A lot of people left during the famine here in the 1840s-50s and 60s and 70s, and a lot of them never came back. And that was the end of it. There was very little here for them even. I'm just.I'm looking at a house here at the moment, and there was 13 people that lived in that house, and only one of them stayed in Ireland, and the rest were never heard from again.

That's. I mean, that's. Wow. From a familiar perspective, you know, there's a family lost.You know, it's family lost sometimes, you know, and that's difficult to reconnect with that kind of family and try to keep track of everybody and where they've gone. And if you've lost them, whether it be through death or be moving away or, you know, immigrating somewhere else, you know, those.Those connections get lost and sometimes never get. Never get re. Put back together, which is kind of a shame.

Yeah. I do think it's sad.

How do you think. How does. How does all this translate beyond music? It's like workplaces and families and friendships, maybe new culture environments.I think that's a nice segue into that. I think it. How do you think that all plays a factor?

Well, I think you probably know one of these very well is the road, you know, etiquette on the road. Haven't been a police officer. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, we just like the etiquette on the road. We can just be. So I think it all boils down to respect.As you said earlier, it's all about respect.

Yes.

And if we don't have respect for each other, then things aren't going to work.

Respect is the word. You know, I think that we as a society and culture have gone in such a direction. That's just my Personal.My own perspective and my own experience, and especially in my career in law enforcement, what we found is the majority of miscommunications came from disrespect and not having the understanding to have a civil conversation or. And that goes.Same thing on the road, you know, And I will tell you, if you ever visit the Phoenix metro area here in Arizona in the United States, the one thing that you'll learn really, really quickly is that there's not a lot of respect on the road here. People drive like crazy, and nobody has respect for anyone else on the road. Whether you're trying to change lanes, brake, bull, and that.I mean, that's kind of off of the music portion of it, but.

Yeah, but it's still kind of.

Yeah, you can take that right back into a performance and into music, into, I think, from a performer's perspective and as well as from the individuals that are taking that in.It's a shift in awareness, and I think it's an ability for how we as people can experience what's going on in that environment with a group of individuals that are there, that we're all enjoying the same thing.And then I think that it has to be a mutual respect of what's going on from the performer's perspective, the musical perspective, as well as the audience perspective. We're all there for a purpose, and I think that purpose is to belong to something that allows us to enjoy or get away from life for a little bit.From those perspectives. I may be getting too philosophical.

No, this is great. This is Brennan.

But I think that in those environments, we should, I think, remember, we need to kind of slow down a little bit and take the time and learn respect, listen.And we would maybe have a better understanding when we walk away from a session, better understanding when we walk away from that and that opportunity for us to be able to get involved and learn. I mean, I would love to tour, to go to Ireland and just listen and watch. Like I said, be people watcher.You're watching a cultural event that translates to a universal communication that gives us emotional depth to our soul. So, yeah.

Yeah. I think even, like, if we take that step back and just think of it more as a communal thing, I think, because if.If we don't, we're kind of looking at the individual, and otherwise, if we're looking at the communal, we can look at it and say, what am I giving to this? And I normally say that when I go into a session, what. What can I give to this session?Does it need me to Be part of it, or would I be better serving this session as person at the bar going, woohoo?

Yeah.

And maybe, you know, a lot of the times actually that's what I do is I sit at the bar and I, you know, even though I don't really drink, I'm not really a drinker, but. But I'd enjoy the music or I'd enjoy watching the people.The people watching or the session watching, or I'll enjoy the people, you know, the banter at the bar or, you know, and then I'd say, right, maybe it's time to go home. I won't stay too long, or something.But yeah, and it's funny, there's a. I do find from my, you know, it's one of the things I've mentioned a couple of times in some of the episodes of my podcast is what can I give to the session? And so I have found that people who are maybe of a skilled level will probably say the same.Most of them, actually, any of the guests I have on will probably say similar, like, what can I give to this session? And maybe it was because we were taught to ask that question. Don't go into it unless, you know, you can give something.But people who are coming to it new are kind of saying, well, what can this session give to me because I need to learn. And so maybe that's the kind of.Maybe we've done that when we were younger and we've moved on from that now, and we're more the care kind of givers rather than takers.

No, I can, I can understand that. I mean, as you know, growing up in my environment, it was always including the reason I've been police officer in the first place.From that perspective, it was, what can I give back? What can I do for somebody? My protect and serve was actually to protect and to serve.And I do the same thing with my family, my kids, my wife, my sister, my friends. I try to daily, on daily basis, I try to make sure that what can I do for somebody today that might improve their life or make them feel better?And I think going into a session like that would be the same thing as a listener, as a participator. From that perspective, my giving is giving my time to enjoy what you're bringing to me.My listening, my paying attention, my resonating with your music, my enjoying the story that you're telling me is, I think, me giving something back to you by paying attention. I think because musically or emotionally, I think that, you know, it helps me feel More grounded because I feel the communal aspect of it.I feel the musical aspect of it. I feel the opportunity to be able to connect with people on a different level.

Yeah, totally. It's just even as a listener, then you can still be brought up in the flow of the things as well.Yeah, you can be caught up in the, in the, the whole feeling of the buzz. Oh, it's, it's just brilliant.And I think, you know, even like a conversation, when you're having a really good conversation, when are the times that you have a really good conversation? It's when everybody's kind of contributing. It's not when you're just like on a solo rant or a. You know, it's when you're, you're.You're both having a good kind of conversation and keep given as much as, you know, or if not more than you're taken. So, yeah, yeah.

I think it's an opportunity for us to be able to get involved from a communal perspective. What can Irish sessions teach us about being present with others? I think we kind of talked about it, touched about a little bit of it brought up.I think that question.

Yeah, I think that is it. I suppose we just think about it. Think about. Maybe it's the self awareness thing. Think about us in a greater communal sense.And like the us as musicians in a session is the same as us as humans in the world. What can we give to the world?

How do we learn to belong without forcing others to. Forcing ourselves to.I mean, I think that what I get from part of our conversation, what we've been trying to figure out is we have those individuals that go, I absolutely love this. We have those individuals that. I want to love this, but I don't know how I can fit into that.Can you help us maybe learn how, how we can belong without forcing that?

Well, I think it's about, for me, it's about having a bit of a recce, so doing that a couple of times.So go into a session maybe three or four times before so that you know what the session is, that you maybe introduce yourself and say, look, I'm learning. I'm learning the fiddle, or I'm learning the concertina, I'm learning the flute, whatever it is.And I'd really love to join at some stage, but I'm not sure if I'm ready yet. And I think I read somewhere recently the saying, if in doubt, reduce your footprint. And I thought, oh, wow, that applies to music. Totally.It applies to a session. So just, you know, take that Stop, step back and.Because if you're willing to, to engage from a kind of a. I, I love what you do and, and I'm, I'm learning. If I can, you know, if I can at some stage come to the session, I would love that. And most like 99% of the time people are going, wow, that's great.Have you got your instrument, you're pointer to come in sometime and, and you know what I would say is, yeah, I will. Yeah. But I might come a couple of times just so that I can learn. Would you mind actually if I maybe tape a couple of this tune so I can learn them?Because I don't know a lot of the repertoire here, don't know many of the tunes here. So it's just to make yourself feel more comfortable so that when you do go in that you a.You've met some of the people there and they're, they're welcoming, they're.Because if you come back four or five times without actually joining, that is a level of restraint and there's a respect around that restraint, a huge amount of respect for that restraint. They'll then actually almost take you under their wings and say, would love, you know, let's, let's help this person along.What you know, do you know this tune? Hi. About this tune. What if we play this tune? Would you know this one?So they really start to be caregivers then of the person who has most restraint and.Yeah, and then even those tunes that you've maybe recorded on your phone or something, take them home and play them, put them on loudspeakers and play along as, you know, as much as you can so that you're replicating the environment so that when you go into the session then it's not like this, oh, crazy space that, you know, you know, it's, it's overwhelming and there's so much to learn because if you think of it, you know, you've just maybe even taken up the instrument for the first time. So, you know, it's completely alien to you. You've learned all these new tunes that are completely alien to you.You then go into a session with new people that are completely alien to you. In a pub environment, maybe that's completely alien to you. So there's so many overwhelming things that could just derail a beginner.So I always trying to say, let's break it down into and make it more simple so that it's, it's more familiar. And you go, oh, actually, sure, I, oh, this is the tune I'VE learned this one, I've played along with it to the recording.So I'm going to play along here. And they've met the people and they've, they've given the restraint as well. And then yeah, that for me that's the way to do it.

I agree. I think it gives you an opportunity to get comfortable. Comfortable with it, comfortable with ourselves within it. I think it's pretty cool actually.What do you learn about yourself through observing all these dynamics? Have you evolved?

Definitely. And continue to evolve? I'm learning an awful lot about. I'm doing a lot of learning in the neuro nlp, Neuro linguistic programming.So that I can I suppose help people. Maybe there might be some things that, like negative beliefs that they might have. I'll never be able to join or I'll never be able to do this.And so I'm trying to figure out what is there. I'll never, you know, so that we can try and unblock that so that they can then get into the session and enjoy it.But usually a lot of adult learners will say, oh, I'll never get to that standard. I mean that's just usually what they'll say. And it's. Oh, it's, it's heart wrenching because I do know that it takes a lot of time.It does take a lot of time.

Well, it's the old cliche that goes around that said you can't teach an old dog new tricks, but reality, if you have the patience to do it, you know, the tenacity to do it, you can teach an old dog do tricks. I mean that's a very mundane analogy but, but true. I picked up learning, you know, a new language after 60 years old.So it's taken me a little longer to do it, but I'm doing it. It's a slow process, but I'm still doing it. So I won't say how far after 60, but we'll say over 60.

Yeah, I think like if you try the five minutes a day, like that compounds over, you know, it's the same as if you put 5, 5 Euro a day into an investment scheme. It will compound over the years. Yeah, the more you put into it, I mean, the more it'll compound.But even if it's at just five, ten minutes a day, it'll compound over the year and then a little cup, a couple of immersion weeks or weekends or something to just kind of really, really boost it together with other people to raise the level. It's like sprinting when you're you know, doing a marathon or you're doing it. Well, I didn't ever did a marathon.I did coach to 5k once, and I, I heard that, you know, when you did the sprinting, it would help you kind of increase your speed. You do a little bit of sprinting to, to and increase your, your lung capacity.And so you kind of doddle along at the, you know, 5K through the rest of the year, and then a couple of sprints maybe once a week or once every once a month to try and get that up to speed. So that's kind of the same as analogy for music as well. You kind of doddle along with five or ten minutes every day and then do the sprints.

It's an investment in ourselves. Yeah, it's investment in ourselves. I wholeheartedly believe that music touches our soul, and I think that it's an investment.It's an investment in ourselves.And on that note, if music truly is a universal language, and from what we've just all talked about with the universal language, the connection, the communal, what is it trying to teach us about that connection?

Whoa, now, that's a tough one. I suppose we're all. We're just all in it together, is that. I think that's what it is. We're just all in here together. We're not on the journey alone.We're all together. And if we're kind of.If we're willing to accept that we're on the journey together and they're all going to die at the end of this journey, I think that gives you a freedom to just relax, chill out and enjoy.

I think that works. Yeah, I think that works. And be able to contribute to society in such a way, in a positive way, and to reap the benefits of that as well.I believe before we wrap up, we could talk for like another hour, but I'd love to, but, you know, obviously, obviously. But maybe you can get back on another time. We can have another conversation, continue it down the road.But before we wrap up, I want to make sure the community knows how to stay connected with you and where people can find you online to listen to your podcast and explore more of your work and all that good stuff. So can you help us find out how to find you and get in connection?

Yeah, I have a website, it's called www.sessionetiquette.com. and on that you can get my contact details. You can listen to the.Listen to the podcast there as well, because I do know that a lot of my listeners were not podcast Friendly. So they didn't know what a podcast platform was. They'd never used Spotify. I'm talking about my mother here.Or, you know, people similar to my mother, actually, you know, maybe only about a year before I started, I started listening podcasts, so. And I had that kind of block where I was like, oh, I don't know what a podcast is, and I don't know where to get it.And there was just kind of like, I don't know if I want to. And I still know friends who don't want to engage with podcasts. And like, okay, we can.You can just go onto my website and you can listen to it on there. Just like a. With a, you know, MP3s. Or there's. There's the players embedded there, which they don't need to know, but they just press the play button.So that's how my mother listens to it. And she. Yeah, when she's cooking breakfast, she'll listen to my episodes.

That's cool.

So I'm also doing a couple of workshops and immersion weeks later in the year as well, so that. Just to help people get over that anxiety and.

Yeah, and I'll make sure. I think it's an opportunity in my lifetime. I love opportunities because we have an opportunity to always.If we grasp that opportunity, it gives us the ability to be able to move forward in our lives or to attain something, to gain something, whether it be knowledge, motivation, inspiration.So I think that you're presenting an opportunity for people to be able to get involved and to become part of your community, which is a, you know, a brilliant thing to do. And your music is brilliant. So they. They really. They really should. They really, really should.

Music is so good for the brain cells. It lights up all the. Every part of your brain. And it's.As a friend of mine is a music therapist in Northern Ireland, she says that people, you know, when you're younger, you engage with music, it's. It's there all the time. And then some. Somehow it just kind of. We let it fade. We let it kind of. Although I have.Because I. I'm a musician all my life, but, you know, people maybe might have started as music as a younger person, and then they stopped when maybe the kids came or they got married or whatever. They got jobs, and they just put the instrument away in a box and never saw it again. And they're just. It's like, where.Why did we allow ourselves to let go of that? Because music's so special. It's around for the good Times it's around for the bad. Times it's around for us whenever we need. So

the thing you said about memory and the musical therapist up there, I know that from my own experience.We took care of my wife's father, who had Lewy Body dementia, and although there were so many things that he lost in his memory, including really understanding who his daughter was and so forth, but when we turned music on for him, that resonated with him, and he would smile because it looked like he remembered the music.

It was familiar. Yeah. Which is so special. Yeah.

It just really. When you said it kind of integrates and wraps around your brain, that memory, I almost teared up because that memory popped into my brain and.Yeah, that's pretty slick. I'll make sure that I have everything in the show notes that we can just have an easy way to click on it and they'll find you.It's been an absolute pleasure to meet you and learning about Irish heritage and traditions and the music and so much more.

Thank you so much.

Michael, this is one more thing before you go, so I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to leave our audience with a final thought, a piece of wisdom about belonging, president, presence, or the quiet rules to shape human connection. What would you want them to carry with you after today?

I think what we talked about, you know, being respectful to others, but also being respectful to yourself. So allow yourself to enjoy the music because. And maybe don't put it off too long if you're going to play. You know, there's no toolbars on a hearse.There's no. There's no pockets in a shroud. So enjoy it now, because it's not going to be there. You know, we're not going to be here forever. None of us.We're all in one direction only, unfortunately. Like the. Like the band, One Direction Only. None of us have. Have found the. The. The magic pill to go backwards, unfortunately. So grasp it now.Just take the music, whatever kind of music. Just enjoy it.

Life can change in an instant. Grasp that instant. Brilliant words of wisdom. Again, thank you very much for joining us, for sharing your journey and your wisdom and so much more.

Thank you so much, Michael.

Belonging isn't something we earn. It's something we learn. And sometimes the lessons aren't spoken.They're felt in the pauses, the glances, the rhythms that we step into, and the music we share without ever saying a word. Irish sessions remind us that connection is a living thing. Conversation between presence and awareness, between who we are. And who we are becoming.And maybe the real universal language isn't music itself, but the way it teaches us to listen and to be part of a community. So that's a wrap for today's episode. I hope you found inspiration, motivation, and a new perspective to take with you.If you enjoyed it, please sure to like subscribe and follow us and stay connected. You can find us on Apple, Spotify and your favorite listening platform, and you can head over to YouTube and catch the full video version.I'm Michael Hurst. Have a great day, have a great week, and thank you for being part of our community.

Thanks for listening to this episode of One More Thing before youe Go.Check out our website@beforeyougopodcast.com you can find us as well as subscribers to the program and rate us on your favorite podcast listening platform.